93' 2.3L M5OD-R1 5spd..... rattling rocks in a can noise....

[Duane867]

93' 2WD 2.3L M5O-R1

Recently ( last weekend ) I replaced the slave cylinder, throw out bearing, clutch and pressure plate.
Before the repairs the clutch was not slipping but hard shifting in to gear and over a certain rpm the trans would create a noise like rocks in a can. Usually right when it was time to shift under normal driving conditions ( drive it like a grandma ). After the new installs I thought I was all set. Drove away and still had the rattle. When I had the trans removed I did note a small amount of end play on the input shaft. I would say near 1/16 - 1/32" guestimated movement from side to side and up and down right at the tip.
Bought the truck used three weeks ago knowing it would need a clutch and timing belt.
The belt smacks the cover a little but I am positive it not the noise I am hearing because I can hear and feel it a little right above the shifter.

I fancy my self an OK mechanic with skills enough to solve my own problems most of the time but this damn thing has me wondering. after the truck has set a little while then I take off it does the rocks in a can bit, BUT if I have been driving a short distance it stops and dosen't do it again until I let her sit for a little while ( hour or so )

I did note that when I removed the shifter the kind previous owner was gracious enough to remove the shifter ball plastic bushings and not reinstall new ones. ( engineers know pen to paper but squat about real world physical labor and common sense ) The truck runs like a new truck. Really, its so quiet I have to double take to make sure it hasn't stalled at red lights once in a while.

Hope this isn't what I think it is though..... shaft bearings or syncro's.

Its sort of like well rocks in a can. Only happens under acceleration.
When the clutch is depressed it does go away but I can hear it wind back down to where it stops. I notice it audibly through 3rd gear.
I have not checked the fluid level, the rail plugs are seeping a bit but nothing major.

Any takers ?

 

[Duane867]

93' 2WD 2.3L M5OD-r1 sounds like rocks in a can....

93' 2WD 2.3L M5O-R1

Recently ( last weekend ) I replaced the slave cylinder, throw out bearing, clutch and pressure plate.
Before the repairs the clutch was not slipping but hard shifting in to gear and over a certain rpm the trans would create a noise like rocks in a can. Usually right when it was time to shift under normal driving conditions ( drive it like a grandma ). After the new installs I thought I was all set. Drove away and still had the rattle. When I had the trans removed I did note a small amount of end play on the input shaft. I would say near 1/16 - 1/32" guestimated movement from side to side and up and down right at the tip.
Bought the truck used three weeks ago knowing it would need a clutch and timing belt.
The belt smacks the cover a little but I am positive it not the noise I am hearing because I can hear and feel it a little right above the shifter.

I fancy my self an OK mechanic with skills enough to solve my own problems most of the time but this damn thing has me wondering. after the truck has set a little while then I take off it does the rocks in a can bit, BUT if I have been driving a short distance it stops and dosen't do it again until I let her sit for a little while ( hour or so )

I did note that when I removed the shifter the kind previous owner was gracious enough to remove the shifter ball plastic bushings and not reinstall new ones. ( engineers know pen to paper but squat about real world physical labor and common sense ) The truck runs like a new truck. Really, its so quiet I have to double take to make sure it hasn't stalled at red lights once in a while.

Hope this isn't what I think it is though..... shaft bearings or syncro's.

Its sort of like well rocks in a can. Only happens under acceleration.
When the clutch is depressed it does go away but I can hear it wind back down to where it stops. I notice it audibly through 3rd gear.
I have not checked the fluid level, the rail plugs are seeping a bit but nothing major.

 

[Duane867]

I just thought of something......
I may have the answer to my own problem and not have realized it until just now.
I bled the clutch three time because I thought the pedal was to soft and can not get it as stiff as I would like. I suspect the seals in the clutch master cylinder to be at fault.
Could the rattling I am hearing be caused from contact of the throw out bearing, clutch and pressure plate making poor contact to the fly wheel due to lack of pressure ; caused by the master cylinder ?

 

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

You sure its not your engine pinging? (pre-detonation)

 

[sfwjesse]

My input shaft had about the same amount of play.....while i am sure its not in spec it hasnt caused me issues. Drain the fluid and look for metal chips....that should tell you alot.

 

[Duane867]

Absolutely no pre-detonation going one ....



I just thought of something......
I may have the answer to my own problem and not have realized it until just now.
I bled the clutch three time because I thought the pedal was to soft and can not get it as stiff as I would like. I suspect the seals in the clutch master cylinder to be at fault.
Could the rattling I am hearing be caused from contact of the throw out bearing, clutch and pressure plate making poor contact to the fly wheel due to lack of pressure ; caused by the master cylinder ?

 

[sfwjesse]

these systems are a bitch to bleed but the only thing that lack of pressure will do is prevent you from disengaging everything.....it will grind when you try to shift into gears. That would be the only noise you would here is when you try to shift, cause your trying to mesh moving gears.

Clutch and pressure plate and flywheel are mated by the springs in the pressure plate...has nothing to do with your hydraulics. Your slave cylinder pushes on the springs to release everything.

 

[Duane867]

Any one have any other thoughts ?

 

[Duane867]

Ok then I got nothing LOL !
I just realized I would probably never hear a bad pilot bearing due to every thing covering it and its in a recess in the crank UNLESS it were falling a part and squealing.
So I guess I only have the assumption that the bone head engineer I bought it off of dropped something in the top of the trans when he removed the shifter and cap covering the selector shaft. The bushings are totally gone as in missing completely. I'm going to the bone yard this weekend and pull a good set off a junker. Cant see paying $60 bucks for two little bushings from Ford. As a matter of fact... I think the bone head probably did drop a cracked half bushing into the case. I found small bits of blue hard plastic that was pretty shiny like glass but it was most definitely plastic of some sort. After looking at photos all the bushings I have seen are blue plastic or white plastic. I cant see plastic destroying steel but you never know.
I think I will take the advice of draining the trans fluid this weekend and see what comes out. I expect to see some more bits of plastic. Maybe I can flush whats left out ?
I would think there would have to be a good sized piece in there some where in just the perfect spot though to be causing that racket. But there is virtually no room for something to make it all the way through to the bottom right ? I mean its basically close tolerance through out from front to back isn't it ? Then I am left with this.. it goes away like clock work after driving a mile or two of shifting and returns every time I drive off after an hour or more of sitting ?
It drives and shifts fine other then the rattle so I am not to worried about it other then a temporary annoyance starting off all the time.
Just a curiosity killed the cat type of thing I guess.....Its probably going to be a thrust bearing or something, but I am holding out for an easy fix LOL !

 

[Duane867]

No one has had this problem ? In all of the ranger owners here no one has had the old rocks in a can noise ?

 

[Duane867]

Cracked flywheel maybe ?

I had this posted both hear and in the trans forum but for some reason it was removed from the trans forum and both placed here. At most I figured I would get some good responses from both forums and this one would be deleted while the one in the trans forum would stay. But.....

 

[Duane867]

I feel like a retard licking flavored window panes !
It was both the timing belt and the throw out bearing.
The belt was slapping and I forgot the grease the outer surface of the bearing when I installed the new slave cylinder. replaced the belt, re-greased the bearing and I am good to go. Runs like a champ. Unless the noise returns that is....
I can go up a pretty good grade now at highway speed and not drop nearly as much speed. Makes it a lot further up the hill on my way to work in the mornings before I have to bump down to 4th before I crest the hill.
To give you an idea about the hill big rigs regularly put on the flashers and gear way town going up it. Its not an initially steep grade, it gradually gets steeper as you go.

 

[LittleHorse]

I was going to say the only rocks in a can noise I've ever heard was a throwout bearing, but I couldn't possibly know anything, I'm an engineer.


Those shifter bushings aren't something you can drop in to the top of the transmission. They wear out and break up, and then fall into it. That's why they sell replacements - they're a wear item.

 

[Duane867]

If you knew but held it back until after the problem was solved then what exactly does that help ? Nada. Helps no one.
Those bushings also break in to two pieces when you don't remove the dowels, try to remove them ( just so you can see whats going on in there for no particular reason) , then the bottom bushing falls into the transmission case.

I called and asked. Told me he did it. Never said he was a bad guy just lacked real world common sense - like answering questions that have already been answered like you knew it whole time. ( There's that pesky pen to paper thing again. )

Drained the fluid and several small pieces came out chewed up. Gonna go a few more hundred miles and do the same thing.

But thank you for not offering any helpful information your highness.

 

[LittleHorse]

If you knew but held it back until after the problem was solved then what exactly does that help ? Nada. Helps no one.
Those bushings also break in to two pieces when you don't remove the dowels, try to remove them, then the bottom bushing falls into the transmission case.

I called and asked. Told me he did it. Never said he was a bad guy just lacked real world common sense - like answering questions that have already been answered like you knew it whole time. ( There's that pesky pen to paper thing again. )

Drained the fluid and several small pieces came out chewed up. Gonna go a few more hundred miles and do the same thing.

But thank you for not offering any helpful information your highness.

I didn't hold it back, this was the first time I read the thread. I don't disagree the guy must have been a dumbass, but a day may come when you miss out on something because you insulted someone for having the same occupation as some ignorant moron you met in the past. Engineers are just like anyone else - the degree doesn't make them any smarter but it doesn't make them any stupider either. They're the same person coming out as they were going in.