68 F-100 4x4 Drivetrain decisions...

[JoshT]

Every other board I'm on to discuss this is either oriented to the truck or the particular engines. They are usually biased and/or at extremes. Hoping to get some feedback here that is a little less biased and might help me get my ideas together. A little background on the truck before I get into the discussion, if I don't have one already I'll start a separate build thread on it at a later time.

Some of you have seen the thread and posts about dad getting sick a few weeks ago and passing last weekend (7/13). Most of you probably wouldn't know that the F-100 4x4 in my signature was originally his. He got the truck in the mid 80s from his (at the time) step-dad. The step dad was a good man, but was gone from the picture when I was young enough that I don't really remember him, so it me it was always my dad's truck. Dad usually had a newer, smaller truck as well, my former '84 Ranger for a time, a '90 BII, a 2wd '94 F-150, then a couple of other Rangers, but the F-100 was always there and was the go-to when there was tough work to be done. Around 2006 he got the F250 (also in my sig) and the F-100 got put to pasture. I think he would have been interested in fixing it up himself, but he had already been in the plane crash by that point which lessened his ability considerably, then the medical retirement and other stuff made the finances too tight for playing with something like that. He also knew that I eventually wanted to get and rebuild it, and wanted me to make my own descisions on it. In hind sight I wish I'd made it a priority and done it back then, but i had other projects and priorities, and no room for it in the stable so it sat. I pulled it out of the pasture in 2018, got it back on the road and use it occasionally, but didn't take long to realize that it's going to take a fair bit more work to make it the truck I want it to be. I'll go into more details in the build thread. Got the F-250 from dad in 2021 and the F-100 has mostly been waiting for me to get facilities to really undertake a rebuild/restomod on it. It's still usable, but it isn't something I would get far from home in, especially now that dad is gone (or this time of year with no A/C). On to the point of this thread...

With dad's passing his shop is no longer in use. I no longer need to wait for a place to work on it and it's got almost every tool that I could possibly need. If I can stand to be in there working without him, that feels like the perfect place to rebuild his truck.

While this will never be a regular road tripping vehicle I would like to be able to hop in and drive a few hundred miles away with no concerns. I'm in Middle GA and when I get done I'd like to feel comfortable hopping in it and going out of the area/state. Definitely to something like the Caffeine and Octane meets that @Rick W goes to in atlanta that is about 2 hours, 120 miles away. Maybe some of the bigger eastern Ford meets like Maggie Valley or Carlisle, about 300 and 800 miles respectively. Even better if I can do it pulling a small camper (really, a small single person unit), or maybe a Ranger on a flatbed, in relative comfort. To even get close to this goal I'm going to want a fresh engine (preferibly one with more power), EFI (already have Sniper on it), an Overdrive transmission, upgrade brakes, and A/C.

Currently the truck has a worn out Ford 360 FE backed by an NP435 and Dana 21 single speed transfer case. Front axle is a Dana 44 and rear is a Ford 9". The Dana 44 is converted to disc brakes using a spindle and caliper from a 70s Blazer, and a rotor and hub from a 90s F-150. Would like to swap to Willwood multi piston kit if I can ever souce some good drum brake spindles, mine were lost in the shuffle, but that is discussion for another time and place. Rear 9" will eventually be swapped for the wider 31 spline 9" from later model F-100/F-150, again discussion for another time and place. Truck has 32" tires w/body lift at current, it's either getting 33s/35s and a proper lift, or 31s and no lift during the rebuild, haven't settled on that yet. I'm mostly interested in the engine and transmission for this discussion, just wanted to state what I'm working with now.

I'm considering two routes for the engine, either stroking the FE or swapping a 7.3L Godzilla. Seriously, I know that there are other options, but I will be using one of those two. No LS flipoff, no coyote/mod motor, no windsor. I'm torn on which of the two to go with though. The FE has the originality and period correctness, but definitely has drawbacks for a truck I want to use. It'll be expensive to build, harder and more expensive to maintain, more expensive to feed, and a stroker never has the reliability of a stock engine. The 7.3L Godzilla will be expensive to swap, but you get as much power in a stock package with lots of room to grow. It's also more efficient, parts are available everywhere, actually smaller and lighter weight from what I understand. It does loose the originality, and more difficult to install since noone makes swap kits, but there is a welder, engine hoist and lots of metal around dad's shop.

Rebuilding the FE like I'd want is going to run 2-3k for the stroker kit. Probably 2-3k for a set of aftermarket heads, camshaft, and valvetrain upgrades to support the stroker. Based on the 5.0L I did last year, probably around 1k for machine work on the block, more if I have them assemble it (probably wise considering the investment). I'd probably be looking for a better EFI system to install too, with that much invested in the longblock, I'm not sure I'd want to trust it to a Sniper. All in I'm probably looking at 10K plus for the engine rebuild. When you get into stroker kits on an FE all displacements cost about the same. With a 445, about the biggest I could go on my block, and a good set of heads I'm looking at about 500 hp @ 5k RPM, 450+ lb-ft from 2.5-5k RPM. Of course that is built and cammed as a performance street motor, not a truck engine.

I know that "The Infamous Project" sells complete (all accessorys and controlls) low miles 7.3L takeouts from E-series EV conversions for <$9k, or ~$10 with an automatic transmission. I really don't want an auto in this. I'm guessing that I can probably find even better prices for a low miles engine, though maybe not as low. I think I saw where Ford sells 7.3L crate engines for 5-6k, but no acessories there. Even if I bought the complete takeout I'd probably want to get the accessory relocation kit that is sold for F-100 swaps (wish they did mounts too) and need to buy a control pack to work with the manual transmission. I figure looking at about the same 10k (maybe another 1-2k for everything) to get a running engine swap. Those are around 430 HP and 475 lb-ft stock, Probably better with tuning, and allegedly a lot more available from a simple camshaft swap. Plus you get the advantages of a modern engine. Lighter weight, better metalurgy (aka better wear), more effeciency, and parts available at pretty much any local parts store.

With either engine option, truck will definitely be getting a 5 or 6 speed overdrive transmission and a 2 speed transfer case. The NP435 was a very tough transmission and great option 60 years ago when the truck was built. Unfortunately on these F-100s ford used a Dana 21 single speed transfer case married to a 2wd version of the NP435. I definitely want to swap to a two speed case, but to do so I'd have to replace the entire transmission. They are out there, but in my area a 4x4 NP435s aren't just lying around in every salvage yard. It would cost dang near as much to get one of those in good condition as it would to get something modern with an overdrive. Leaning towards a ZF6 w/ manual transfer case from a V10 Super Duty. Those are rated for something around 700 lb-ft, which is plenty for either engine choice and build I'm likely to do. The shift pattern is backwards from what the truck currently has, but the F-250 has the same transmission (and transfer case) so I'm good there. The V10 used the modular bellhousing pattern, so does the 7.3L and adapters are available to put mod motor transmissions behind the FE, so that is covered. The hardest part of that swap aside from having driveshafts and a crossmember made is that the ZF uses a hydraulic clutch, while the F-100 is mechanical linkages. Some of the transmission swap companies do make a hydraulic clutch master kit for the F-100s. They're more for use in building performance 2wd street trucks, but the body and clutch pedals are the same.

I'm not worried about numbers matching or all original. That went out the window 30+ years ago, and I care more about it fitting me than being original. Dad was the same way. I have no doubt that dad would have gone either of these routes if he were building the truck and able to afford it. Back in the 90s there wasn't as much aftermarket available for the FE as there is now and what was was even more expensive, so that was off the table. Of course the 7.3L gas wasn't around then, but a lot could be done with a Ford small block. I seem to recall that at one point he was considering swapping in a 351w and C6. I know that the 351 was in a retired CVPI that my mom used to drive and he had the auto and divorced transfer case in the back corner of the shop at one time, both are long gone now.

Please discuss these engine and transmission options. I've got a lot to do to the truck before I need to nail down what I'm going to do, but very torn on which way to go. Hoping that discussing it will help me come to a decision. Engine does run, so cleanning up the frame and fixing the bad spots on the body will be the first major components in the rebuild, but I feel like I need to have an idea of what I'm going to be doing on the drivetrain before I have to make any major decisions on those. I might not even do the engine swap/rebuild as an initial part of the restomod (that would be a lot of money at once) and make it a "phase 2" deal, but I have an idea of what I'm using I can pre-plan to make things easier when it does happen. Maybe something like mockup block to build mounts and cross members select headers, etc. while the body is blown apart and before the frame gets cleaned up and painted.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Biggest con IMO for the 'zilla is eveything it takes to get the zilla in there.

Wiring will be a PITA.

You will need a new fuel system as well.

Is the V10 ZF different than the 5.4 one?

Will have to hunt down a manual t-case as well unless you want to jump thru hoops to make the electric shift one work.

A stroker would not be my first choice, a warmed up 390 to keep reliability would have a certain appeal.

But it is hard to beat late model EFI.

 

[Mechrick]

While this will never be a regular road tripping vehicle I would like to be able to hop in and drive a few hundred miles away with no concerns. I'm in Middle GA and when I get done I'd like to feel comfortable hopping in it and going out of the area/state. Definitely to something like the Caffeine and Octane meets that @Rick W goes to in atlanta that is about 2 hours, 120 miles away. Maybe some of the bigger eastern Ford meets like Maggie Valley or Carlisle, about 300 and 800 miles respectively. Even better if I can do it pulling a small camper (really, a small single person unit), or maybe a Ranger on a flatbed, in relative comfort

I think more than anything your intended usage will determine the best options for powertrain. Things to consider are:

1) Fuel to be used
2) Low speed driveability
3) MPG requirements
4) Cooling system limitations

In particular, camming the engine up will disappoint you if you are towing. Everyone likes that lopey idle, but in the real world, it's not very practical.

Stroker kits are great, but not very cost-effective, especially if your cam choice is limited by your usage. It's better to start with something big from the factory, like a 460.

In my old age, I've come to appreciate the small block Ford pattern for it's transmission choices. The E4OD, 4R70W, M5OD, C6, T5 and C4 are common in the small block pattern, and give overdrive options.

My personal opinion is the 5.0L Explorer V8 with the 4R70W and all it's electronics represent the best Ford swap option for simplicity, size, performance and cost. Yes, there are more powerful options out there, and someday the 351C I have in the shed will find a home in some old Ford, but the 5.0 makes for a great daily driver.

 

[sgtsandman]

I'm leaning in the direction 85 is going. Everything will be simpler to setup and install. Putting a modern engine in an old truck is probably going to be an electrical nightmare.

 

[JoshT]

I'm on the phone so it's going to be easier to reply to one person at a time.

Biggest con IMO for the 'zilla is eveything it takes to get the zilla in there.

Wiring will be a PITA.

You will need a new fuel system as well.

Is the V10 ZF different than the 5.4 one?

Will have to hunt down a manual t-case as well unless you want to jump thru hoops to make the electric shift one work.

A stroker would not be my first choice, a warmed up 390 to keep reliability would have a certain appeal.

But it is hard to beat late model EFI.

The truck is going to be taken down to the frame any way. I think the biggest complication for getting 'zilla in there will be building mounts. I'll have to build a trans mount either way. I know mount just are available with the engine side done, just have to fit the frame side.

Wiring is already going to be a PITA. Truck already has a Sniper EFI kit, so plenty of additional wiring is already there. Part of the resto mod will be a new chassis harness. Also cleaning up the Sniper install if I keep that, but possibly doing some sort of MPFI kit or newer throttle body kit on the FE instead. So it will about the same amount of work on wiring either way.

Already going to get a new fuel system either way. Currently still has the I cab tank with a rail mounted fuel pump. I want the tank out of the cab, and an in tank pump. Only place for it is behind the axle, and will require running all new lines.

Couldn't tell you the difference between the V10 and 5.4 ZF. I think that they would be the same. I'm looking at the 6 speed, not the 5 speed, and I don't know when they put which behind which engine.

Manual transfer case is the plan and should t be too difficult to find. I know that the ZF-6 was available with a manual transfer case, that's what is behind the 7.3L in my F-250. Even if it wasn't available stock behind the V10, the same setup should go on any Ford 4x4 ZF6.

FWIW turning my 360 into a 390 would be a stroker kit. For my intended usage, I don't see there being much difference in reliability between a 360, 390, 410, or even the big dog 445. The rotating assemblies are proven, it's the valvetrain that is the concern. Modern flat tappet camshafts are crap, rollers are the only way to go, but the further you get from stock (or OE style) components the harder it is to repair in BFE. It's going to cost just as much for me to build my FE I to a 390 as it would to go 410 or 445. Same machine work and all internals being replaced.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Wiring like gauges and all that.

Don't blame you a bit on the fuel tank.

I know the older ones, like in OBS trucks the diesels were different than the gas (looked into getting one for my 5.0) I was curious if there was a reason you seemed to be targeting the V10 ones.

Like with Rangers once they killed the option for "normal" trucks they went out of their way to delete the mounting bosses on the extension housing for the 4wd levers was on a FX4 level II until eventually they killed that too. Watch for that.

I was just thinking find a 390 to rebuild, not really "stroke" yours. Neither here nor there.

Sadly I don't know if OEM really helps a whole lot for internals on a FE in BFE...

Agreed on flat tappet cams, can't beat a roller.

 

[Curious Hound]

Rebuilding what you have or building an engine like it yo swap in sounds like a good choice. Granted, i enjoy a big engine as much as anyone.

My personal opinion is that that truck screams for an old school carbureted 302 or 351. But i wouldn’t do that. A late model EFI 5.0l would make a nice powerplant for it. Classic 302 displacement with the modern convenience of EFI. My 88 F150 had a 5.0l and it was nearly perfect for that truck. The 4.9l EFI would also be a good choice.

 

[JoshT]

I think more than anything your intended usage will determine the best options for powertrain. Things to consider are:

1) Fuel to be used
2) Low speed driveability
3) MPG requirements
4) Cooling system limitations

In particular, camming the engine up will disappoint you if you are towing. Everyone likes that lopey idle, but in the real world, it's not very practical.

Stroker kits are great, but not very cost-effective, especially if your cam choice is limited by your usage. It's better to start with something big from the factory, like a 460.

In my old age, I've come to appreciate the small block Ford pattern for it's transmission choices. The E4OD, 4R70W, M5OD, C6, T5 and C4 are common in the small block pattern, and give overdrive options.

My personal opinion is the 5.0L Explorer V8 with the 4R70W and all it's electronics represent the best Ford swap option for simplicity, size, performance and cost. Yes, there are more powerful options out there, and someday the 351C I have in the shed will find a home in some old Ford, but the 5.0 makes for a great daily driver.

Pump gas or that ever the engine needs.

Not sure what you are getting at by low speed drivability. It's not going to be a race car. Normal driving.

I prefer MPG to GPM. As I think I mentioned I do t want to have issues hopping in and driving so where 1000 miles away.

Will run what ever cam is recommended by someone that does cams, not afraid to get something custom ground. Don't care one way or the other about lopey idle.

Not going 460, SBF, or any other option. It's either a built FE or the Godzilla.

Already got a SBF and 4R70W. Great combo for the Ranger, or at least I think it will be if I ever install a shift kit, but still good. No SBF, or auto in this truck. This is some old Ford.

 

[JoshT]

I'm leaning in the direction 85 is going. Everything will be simpler to setup and install. Putting a modern engine in an old truck is probably going to be an electrical nightmare.

With the control packs or a Terminator EFI, it shouldn't be any more difficult than most other engine swaps. Definitely no harder than the Sniper that I've already done on it.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

With the control packs or a Terminator EFI, it shouldn't be any more difficult than most other engine swaps. Definitely no harder than the Sniper that I've already done on it.

* I have no experience with any of the control pack stuff.

 

[JoshT]

Wiring like gauges and all that.

Don't blame you a bit on the fuel tank.

I know the older ones, like in OBS trucks the diesels were different than the gas (looked into getting one for my 5.0) I was curious if there was a reason you seemed to be targeting the V10 ones.

Like with Rangers once they killed the option for "normal" trucks they went out of their way to delete the mounting bosses on the extension housing for the 4wd levers was on a FX4 level II until eventually they killed that too. Watch for that.

I was just thinking find a 390 to rebuild, not really "stroke" yours. Neither here nor there.

Sadly I don't know if OEM really helps a whole lot for internals on a FE in BFE...

Agreed on flat tappet cams, can't beat a roller.

It going to end up with a Dakota Digital cluster regardless of which engine I use. They've got the stuff to make it easy with pretty much any engine option.

V10 is just a place I know I can get the transmission I want. Super Duty 5.4Ls might be another. There is difference in gearing between the gas and diesel transmissions. Different bell housing too.

I'll have to check into the mounting boss thing. If I have to change extension housing to make it work, I'll change extension housing.

I think that I know the block I've got, finding a spare to build isn't worth the risks. I've read the nightmares of used FE blocks, the internal damages people find when they get them home. The overbored blocks that are sold as stock. Core shifted blocks that aren't fit for much overbored, making cleanup risky. The only way I'd consider building a different block is buying a NEW reproduction casting, and that adds a lot to base cost of building one.

Best I can tell, the only thing that helps a FE in BFE is having a spare FE. OEM or aftermarket, I'd have to try to overnight/next-day parts or wait a week for them to hopefully be delivered. I ain't got the money to be paying for rushed shipping like that, so I'd be waiting on parts to show.

 

[Rick W]

OK, laugh at me, I barely know what you guys are talking about with these engines and transmissions and transfer cases. But I have had a lot of toys, and more than a few of them were custom builds. A couple of thoughts on the concept of a custom build.

Number one, follow your heart. Almost every one I’ve ever done, everybody I was hanging around with told me I was crazy, and after they were somewhat done, everybody told me how cool it was. Doesn’t have to be cool for anybody else, forget that crap. Do what you want.

Having said that, when my friends and I were about 40-45 years old, we had the financial and time resources to build some of these wild toys. Theoretically our dream toys. They were fantastic when we built them, but shortly thereafter, when we were late 50s,they were a pain in the ass to maintain. And if you put the pretty paint job on them, you’re afraid of taking them anywhere. If you’re going to build something, you want to build it to drive it anywhere at any time you want. That means you have to throw a certain degree of practical into it

Again, I don’t know much about the different motors and transmissions and such you guys are discussing. Hopefully you will grow from 40 or 45, to 50 or 55 later, and even 65 or 70 like me. Hopefully more. Hopefully you stay, strong and healthy as an ox, but the odds are not in favor of that. Everybody lives longer than when my parents were around, but few of them have the same energy and ability that they did what they were 45 or 50. So if you’re thinking of building a monster, think about it will be a monster to turn if your elbow is sore, think if the clutch is going to be too hard to push down if you’ve got arthritis, and shifting around a two or three stick truck might be a challenge. I didn’t get old and creaky from a bad lifestyle, I stepped in a hole when I was 64 years old, and overnight I’ve been a physical wreck ever since. I couldn’t handle some of my old toys anymore.

Keep mama and the kids in mind. A lot of the joy in our lives is sharing it with our family. My very best friend on earth always had a Corvette, and when he was about 50, he bought his “dream” Corvette. It was loud with a heavy suspension that held the road like glue, it shifted hard to hold the speed, etc., etc. He’s exactly my age, and three years ago, he traded “down“ to a Corvette that was mostly stock, that was infinitely easier to drive around, and that his wife actually enjoyed when she was the passenger.

Think about insurance. The way to have these things is to have them on a collector policy. I have Hagerty for the trucks, and I have Grundy for Lincolns. Full coverage, high liability, low deductible, guaranteed value. And it’s dirt cheap. But if I had done this or that to any one of them, I would not have qualified for the insurance or it would’ve been five times as much.

Never think for a minute that the price of gas, overtime, is not going to go up. I saw $.19 in my lifetime, and I remember buying gas at $.29. More recently, I remember very distinctly paying $4.00.

I’ll give you another out of the box thought. Some of the best advice I got in my life, when I was pretty young, was to sit down and figure out where I wanted to be in five years or 10 years or 20 years. Not dreaming, but sit down and put it on paper, be specific. Then narrow it down one sheet of paper. You don’t want to lay out the whole pathway, you just want to put on one sheet of paper exactly where you want to be in 20 years. What kind of house, what kind of family, what vehicles, what financial status, what kind of flowers in the yard, whatever is important to you. A picture, not a plan. If the picture is clear, of course we have to have a focused pathway, but the steps become automatic. We make a million decisions every day that we don’t think are important whether we go this way or that way. If you take the time to back up for a few minutes and really focus in where you want to be 20 years from now, really get that clear in your head, then those little tiny decisions you don’t think make a difference are all important, they’re all quick and clear, but you will make them automatically because you know where you’re going. Do that with your truck, but also do it with your life. If the truck is important, you’ll know exactly how to do it as part of the bigger picture.

I don’t remember if you have kids. What would they want to do with the truck? Even if they’re five years old, what’s their opinion? I’ve done a few things over the years that way, and I’ve never regretted it.

Blah blah blah, it’s all noise, but I hope you get the meaning, I hope you get the core of the idea. Whatever you do with that old truck, I know it’s going to be cool as hell. I know half the people are going to love it, and half the people are going to think you’re nuts. If you’re not going to do it stock nut and bolt, just do what you want. But as wild as you get, make it practical to drive, practical to maintain, and easy for those who were close around you to enjoy. Everybody’s else is still just going to say wow unless they’re a jerk. There are a lot of jerks out there. But the wows from the important people are the important wows.

Everybody told me I was nuts when I bought my 73 Ford F350 Holmes wrecker tow truck (which was just a big toy, I wasn’t in the business and I didn’t tow anything). And when I went to the car meets, all the guys with the showroom Chevelles and Mustangs and trucks all came and got a hard on around that F350 Ditto with the Road Ranger. But with my bad legs and bad arm, I can still drive it anywhere I want to go. Couldn’t do that with the wrecker, that’s why it’s gone, not because I didn’t love it when I built it.

Still all just my two cents. I must be up to 45 or 50 cents by now….

Good luck with it, I’ll be watching

 

[JoshT]

@Rick W

The FE was Fords big engine back in the 50s and 60s prior to the development of the 385 series (IE: 460 big block). Came in displacements of 331 to 428 ci in factory form, with 352, 360, and 390 being the most common. One of the baddest Ford engines of the 60s and 70s was based on it. The legendary 427 SOHC. Stock FEs were heavy at about 650 lbs in stock form, you could drop almost 80 just swapping to an aluminum intake. Last used in the mod 70s. Aftermarket had mostly died out in the 80s but is making a comeback due to dedicated enthusiasts.

7.3 Godzilla is Fords new big pushrod engine that they introduced a few years ago, 2021 IIRC. Small and lighter with as much power as an equivalent displacement FE, plus much better efficiency. Current production, current parts availability and aftermarket support. Where the FE is nearly tapped out (without going wild) at these power levels, the 7.3 is stock and just getting started. Basically it is the modern successor to the FE and 385 series engines.

Every bit of this is about doing what I want. Rebuilding the truck and making it mine. The problem is I don't know which I want on the engine. They are the only two options that hold any interest for me and they both have their good and bad points. I don't have kids or a wife and mom isn't getting any input aside from the shop and financial aspect. Financially it's only if she will let me borrow from the benefits we're getting from dad's retirement and life insurance. Note I said borrow, basically a self financed loan what ever I use gets paid back. Even if I did have a wife and kids they wouldn't get much input in how it gets built, this is for me. I don't too much care about what anyone else thinks, they can rebuild it to suit them or sell it after I'm dead and gone. That is assuming that the thing hasn't rusted to pieces again by then.

I'd about have to be missing an arm or leg to not be able to shift a manual, and if that happens I'll get help to do an auto swap then. My modifications are actually going to make the clutch easier than it is now since I'm converting from mechanical linkage to hydraulic. Truck has power steering and power brakes, those aren't going away, but might improve.

For normal truck duties I'll have a 2021 F-150 and/or a 2000 F-250 Powerstroke, both 4x4. I do want to feel like I can jump in this F-100 and drive to Alaska with no major concerns. I do want to be able to go to Carlisle or Maggie Valley trucks meets with a small camper (3500ish lbs) or a Ranger on a flat bed in tow. None of what I'd pull are outside the norm for a 1/2 ton truck, even a 60 year old one.

Thanks for the words, but I'm really not looking for life advice here, just discussion on the two engine choices.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Once it is together and running, with the 7.3 driveline it will be a very hard truck to beat for upkeep.

It sounds big but it isn't much bigger than a 351W, they downright swim in a Super Duty engine bay.

 

[pjtoledo]

old school. my now worthless 2 cent opinion.