351 C swap

[fordmike1]

Just curious, what gave you the idea Clevelands don't run ? Are you confusing them with the 351M ?

No confusion. I do know that Clevelands can make some great power and I know that they had their day in the sun back when the Charleston was the popular dance.

The thing is there is so many better choises these days that we dont need to dig up old dinosaurs and try to make them live in this modern day world .

I had a few Clevelands back in the day that made some serious power at a big cost. We built a Maverick with a 302 in it back about 17 years ago and it ran in the 10's with half the money and we drove it on the street almost everyday. Some thing that my Cleveland could never touch (cheap to build and streetable everyday). There are some hard core Cleveland and FE guys out there that will never get it as they are stuck in the past with these old dinosaurs. Remember that the Boss 302 came out with them canted valve heads before a cleveland did and technolgy has far surpast that design heads for the 302 & 351w's. Today you can build a stroker 302 into a 347 with Ford aluminum casting heads, be very streetable and make more power and torque then a 351c could ever with the same money dumped into it. If you are building a old 69/70 Mustang and you said that you wanted a Cleveland then go for it but in a Ranger where things are ALOT TIGHTER a 302/351w is a better choise. Hell a GM LS is a way better choise for a Ranger and like I said before I hate everything GM .

 

[fordmike1]

If you listen you can here that incredible engine roar!

Sounds like and old dodge 318 running on 7 cylinders. Kinda like a freshman high school marching band at best.

I know, I know, your just over stock Explorer 302 Ranger is a power house.

Thank you noticing that.

To be fair, 302's are very dependable, and I have owned several of them.

Good job!!!

But, you've not drove my 351C Ranger, so you don't have anything to compare your Ranger to.

I have owned a couple of Cleveland powered Fords in my time so I do have some thing to compair it to.

I would line up against your 302 stock monster, but I won't replace the chrome that gets peeled off your bumper as I blow past you!

Its nice to daydream some times isnt it???

My little 302 runs great and with the extra things that are done to it other then the engine stuff makes it a great runner so I dought that your dinosaur could run it down. It takes more then just hp to make things fast.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Ahhem, the 302 is older than the 351C, and the 302 design is way older yet. The Cleveland family is the newest pushrod V8 Ford ever designed.

So if the 351C is a dinosaur, I guess that would make the 302 something like a weird sea creature.

The 351C is a much more modern/performance oriented engine than a Winsor. The reason they didn't go with it and kill off the Windsors is what makes Ford... Ford.

So have fun with your weird sea creature, I am with mine

 

[fordmike1]

Ahhem, the 302 is older than the 351C, and the 302 design is way older yet. The Cleveland family is the newest pushrod V8 Ford ever designed .

Then where does the FR9 come in at or the 6.7l powerstroke ? Oh sorry they are the newest V8 pushrod motors Ford ever designed and built.
Yes you are right that the Windsor is older then the Cleveland and is a better engine then the Cleveland and that is why Ford stuck with it. It was a smaller engine that would fit into many of the Ford Chassis easier and deliver the power they needed or wanted with better fuel econmy and emissions.

So if the 351C is a dinosaur, I guess that would make the 302 something like a weird sea creature.

Ok if you want to call it that (I am good with that) but it has recived more modern design updates and lasted in Fords lineup untill 2001. Like I said earlier the Cleveland went out with the Charleston and died like the dinosaurs did. A long time ago!!!

The 351C is a much more modern/performance oriented engine than a Winsor .

You really need to wake up and look around. The Windsor has is way more modern then a Cleveland could ever be made. Windsors recived so many modern things like roller cams, roller rockers, electronic ignition, many diffrent types of fuel injection & tubular exhaust and what modern things has the Cleveland recived to make it more modern then the Windsor??? Ford racing doesnt even offer a dinosaur block (Cleveland or FE) but they do offer a very new design Windsor block called the BOSS. Way more modern.

So have fun with your weird sea creature, I am with mine

I will take my modern sea creature and have much more fun with it then and old dead dinosaur.
It would be fun to hook a chain to a Cleveland and drag it around out in the desert behind my Windsor powered truck and I would have no problem doing it .

 

[HOT_ROD_CAR]

That's sarcasm!

302 or 5.0's are good engines, but the 351C is the king of the small blocks!

Well, if you owned 351's, you must have had them detuned, trying to save gas no doubt!

You don't even understand what you're up against. The design of the 351 Cleveland was way ahead of it's time, and if it were not for the gas shortages and the emissions crack down, the Cleveland would still be in production today.

Ford Racing does offer the 351C blocks in both cast iron and aluminum in their 2011 catalog, pages 103, 104, and 105 as well as add on parts.


Here's some videos for your entertainment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVt_lqaKnrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-J-sKvhZTs&feature=related


Looks like the 351C fits just fine into a Ranger engine compartment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzb2rdfDVMk&feature=related


Wanna see more, just search "351C Ranger" on Youtube.

Well, I am not going to bicker with someone who is obviously not up to par on the subject matter. Do some reading on the 351C and you will probably scamper off with your tail between your legs.

Enjoy your 302 Ranger, but remember, if you want to run with the big dogs, you have to run what the big dogs run! Don't bring a pup to a dog fight!

 

[HOT_ROD_CAR]

my uncle is giving me a 351C out of a mach 1 and i want to put it my 87 ranger 2.0 signal cab 5 speed what do i need to do the swap and what kind of metal work is needed? and how hard is the swap?

Here's the website from this board that will answer most of your questions.

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/V8Conversions.html

The main difference I ran into when I pulled the 302 and put the 351C into my Ranger was that since my 351C is a front sump oil pan, I had to use different motor mounts than what I used with the 302. The transmissions that fit a 302 will fit a 351C with the correct flexplate (28 oz for 351C; the 302 uses a 50 oz flexplate), and I removed the heater box. Most everything else was following the V8 conversion instructions from the site above. I'm running a C4 behind my 351C.

You can't go wrong since you already have the engine. Good luck with your build.

 

[baddad457]

fordmike1, you've lost this arguement. Your points are weak at best.. The only reason Ford discontinued the Cleveland here in the US was due to production costs and the emissions regs of the 70's. It was carried on into the late 80's in Australia. And if it were obsolete (which has been pointed out to be false in posts above) why were the head designs carried on in Nascar racing for so many years (2 decades to be fair) where it was also copied by other brands ? Why is the BBC still strong ? Why was the 460 still with us until ten or so years ago in production (it was developed right along with the Cleveland) Your arguments here sound just like someone walking alone, whistling past the graveyard at night.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Then where does the FR9 come in at or the 6.7l powerstroke ? Oh sorry they are the newest V8 pushrod motors Ford ever designed and built.
Yes you are right that the Windsor is older then the Cleveland and is a better engine then the Cleveland and that is why Ford stuck with it. It was a smaller engine that would fit into many of the Ford Chassis easier and deliver the power they needed or wanted with better fuel econmy and emissions.


Ok if you want to call it that (I am good with that) but it has recived more modern design updates and lasted in Fords lineup untill 2001. Like I said earlier the Cleveland went out with the Charleston and died like the dinosaurs did. A long time ago!!!


You really need to wake up and look around. The Windsor has is way more modern then a Cleveland could ever be made. Windsors recived so many modern things like roller cams, roller rockers, electronic ignition, many diffrent types of fuel injection & tubular exhaust and what modern things has the Cleveland recived to make it more modern then the Windsor??? Ford racing doesnt even offer a dinosaur block (Cleveland or FE) but they do offer a very new design Windsor block called the BOSS. Way more modern.



I will take my modern sea creature and have much more fun with it then and old dead dinosaur.
It would be fun to hook a chain to a Cleveland and drag it around out in the desert behind my Windsor powered truck and I would have no problem doing it .

The last production pushrod gas V8, nothing else came out the door since. Diesels never played into this conversation at all so I didn't think to differentiate them. Neither did racecar engines.

A big reason why they died off is it would take too much work to try to detune them, they were too much of a performance engine and would require too much work to make them pass emissions.

Personally the concept of changing a water pump without changing the timing cover gasket either at the same time or shortly thereafter is a neat concept. For its day it was more modern, aside from the first couple years when it was basically just a stroked 289 it wasn't until the last decade of so of the 302's existance it was actually something to be respected as a performance engine... and ironically it was only in a 4dr SUV for most of those, and because of the weight of the car it was nothing to write home about. For most years of the 302's production you chuck everything but the block (unless it is a goofy tall deck one, then you chuck it too) and start over if you want performance.

The old 302's "tubular headers" didn't flow well (which didn't matter for awhile because for a long time the head design didn't flow well either) They don't fit a Ranger anyway, I have a pair in perfect shape and it would take a lot of frame cutting for them to fit. Manifolds are worth more to the scrap guy

The new "Boss" is a 6.2L mod motor (and a big block at that) and has very little to do with a old windsor small block. Neither does my 5.4L that was also made in Windsor.

I would hope you wouldn't have a problem dragging a 5-600lb dead weight around, I have drug more than that with my dying 2.8.

 

[snoopjonnyjon]

Ford has been putting "Boss 302" on a few too many things these days.

There is a new Boss 302 block, that is based on the old 302 Windsor design.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9085

Now here is my worthless opinion on the 351W vs 351C.

Neither are anything to write home about stock. The 351C is better stock, but the biggest stock cam stuck in one is .427/.453 lift. Not exactly what I consider a race motor, but better than a Windsor.

But let's assume you want more than 70's smog-era performance. These are all ancient worn out motors that ought to be rebuilt anyways. Sure the Cleveland is a better platform to build power with, but it is also more expensive to do so. If you throw $5000 at a Windsor, you'll be making more power than throwing $5000 at a Cleveland. On max-effort deals when money is no object, it flips around again. Cleveland heads flow better and make more power, period. But you aren't going to be running factory heads anyways... and Yates heads fit Windsor blocks, which kinda kills the need to build the Cleveland. I just don't see the point of doing a full out "Cleveland" anymore now that there are so many heads available with relocated valves that fit Windsor blocks.

 

[baddad457]

Ford has been putting "Boss 302" on a few too many things these days.

There is a new Boss 302 block, that is based on the old 302 Windsor design.
.

But let's assume you want more than 70's smog-era performance. These are all ancient worn out motors that ought to be rebuilt anyways. Sure the Cleveland is a better platform to build power with, but it is also more expensive to do so. If you throw $5000 at a Windsor, you'll be making more power than throwing $5000 at a Cleveland. On max-effort deals when money is no object, it flips around again. Cleveland heads flow better and make more power, period..

You've contradicted yourself here. And missed the boat. With a Cleveland, you don't HAVE to spend money on aftermarket heads, AT ALL. With a Windsor, aftermarket heads are a necessity to make power to bring it up on a par equal to a Cleveland. So you can spend more of that $5000 where it counts.

 

[fordmike1]

Ford Racing does offer the 351C blocks in both cast iron and aluminum in their 2011 catalog, pages 103, 104, and 105 as well as add on parts.
:

Really??? You obviously dont know what a Cleveland is. Pages 103, 4 & 5 are Windsor engines and NOT CLEVELANDS. Check this out Baddad and tell this guy what engine blocks those are.
http://fordracingparts.com/2011-catalog/

It sounds like you are the one that really needs to do some reading to find out what a Cleveland is.

In Baddads words
you've lost this arguement. Your points are weak at best....

 

[fordmike1]

You've contradicted yourself here. And missed the boat. With a Cleveland, you don't HAVE to spend money on aftermarket heads, AT ALL. With a Windsor, aftermarket heads are a necessity to make power to bring it up on a par equal to a Cleveland. So you can spend more of that $5000 where it counts.

And those 2V heads are quite the all out high performance heads.
And in your words they are good for something DOOR STOPS!!!
I am not talking about the imported Aussi 2V quench heads or the very rare one that made it here., I am talking about them good quality american 2V garbage things. Missed the boat NO you guy living in the past with them Clevelands and FE's are the ones that missed the boat. The boat brought us to the new age of fuel injection and roller engines and not one of them was ever a Cleveland or and FE. They are Windsors. We can argue over which one is better becuse of this that or the other but in these modern days the Windsor is the hands down winner with no contest.

 

[baddad457]

Really??? You obviously dont know what a Cleveland is. Pages 103, 4 & 5 are Windsor engines and NOT CLEVELANDS. Check this out Baddad and tell this guy what engine blocks those are.
http://fordracingparts.com/2011-catalog/

It sounds like you are the one that really needs to do some reading to find out what a Cleveland is.

Ford Racing did (and they still may, I haven't looked at their catalog lately) a Windsor style(oiling) block with Cleveland mains. So, once again, you're wrong to say it's obsolete and a dinosaur. If it were, it wouldn't have continued on well into this century in Nascar racing, where it's been copied by other brands. I recall seeing a pic of Toyota's(or was it Nissan's?) Nascar motor, it was a dead ringer for a Cleveland. The Chebby SBII heads were as well, canted valved heads.

 

[flaminranger]

o.k. I want in on this.
I like both engines but I wouldn't put a cleveland in a ranger.my opinion.
as far as heads go 2v heads SUCK but they can be fixed to work. 4v heads suck Cause as said earlier they have HUGE ports that flow alot of air in fact too much. they slow down the air fuel mix going into the cylinder so you lose that low rpm torque. but they too can be made to work better with port plates and such.
now the windsor(302)they have heads that don't flow worth crap cause the ports are too small and they too can be made to work.the aftermarket has so many GOOD heads that it makes the build easier to get parts and make good power.
now as for me I prefer the 351 windsor with a mild cam and some decent heads. once again my opinion
now my reason for a windsor over the cleveland is two simple things; weight and cost.
for those of you who keep saying that a cleveland is cheap to build need to go price shopping for parts.
the cleveland he has will probably need rebuilt. the valves , seats,springs,and all the machine work as well as fixing them to work ain't cheap not to mention pistons for the canted valve heads and all.
and they are heavy!!!
as for the windsor parts are cheaper to buy cause they are more popular.
and you can buy a stroker rotating assembly fairly cheap. also a good set of heads won't cost much more than rebuilding those old cleveland heads and they will flow about the same. also intakes are cheaper, cams, and headers as well. also don't forget I could put fuel injection on my 302 fairly easy and cheaper than I could a cleveland.
and they are lighter!!!
so when all is said and done they would probably cost about the same but with a windsor I would have all new parts on the old block not rebuilt old parts on the old block.
I wouldn't put that heavy engine into a truck that had a 2.0 ltr in it to start with.but I wouldn't mind a built cleveland in my 71 montego cause they look sweet

just my $.02
and I would put my 351 in my mustang against your cleveland any day

 

[baddad457]

And those 2V heads are quite the all out high performance heads.

Those measly 2 bbl American Cleveland heads ? Yes, they're 400+ HP door stops. You'll never see that with stock, unported Windsor heads. (unless you huff it) The Cleveland will do it with a simple cam, intake and carb change. And those Ford Racing "Boss 351" blocks in the catalog ? Did you even bother to actually READ the specs ? Deck height is 9.2 (same as a Cleveland) main journals are also stock Cleveland dimensions. It's a hybrid Windsor/Cleveland block. And it's also offered in the Windsor deck (9.5) but again, with Cleveland mains.