12 degrees initial on 2001 5.0 Explorer 5.0, carbureted/HEI on 87 octane?? Maybe too much??

[85_Ranger4x4]

I have duraspark, truck is happy at 10*. Vacuum advance is ported, cruise sucks off manifold.

If I get them mixed up it pings and the cruise surges like crazy...

 

[19Walt93]

In the 70's some PIntos and Mustang II's with 2.3's ran manifold vacuum to the distributor in a failed attempt to increase gas mileage. Instead it caused surging at steady low speeds and a loss of MPG in our hilly terrain because the manifold vacuum drops going up hills and that retarded the timing. Most street 289/302's seem to like 32-36 total advance- that's intitial plus centrifugal combined.

 

[corerftech]

Bobby—-
Bobby—-
Baaaahby—-
(And Walt of course)

Ported my brethren!

So while at work today between replies I navigated to the fordsix site on a google hit.

“Frank”, dunno who/where, just “Frank”….. discussed the issues with Fords- especially with automatic transmissions.
His dissertation nailed every attribute of my vehicle and my experience. He mentioned things like idle drop in gear is less than manifold vac and a retard window that occurs naturally with manifold vac at the throttle crack that sticks around a while.
Prior I would watch the timing tape whiz by and from idle to infinity, the tape would diverge from advancing to retarding and then launch forward and be way too much period.

Ported:
Set to 10, I now get precisely 36 at the final rpm and NO MORE!!
Idle in gear is 150 rpm less impacted, meaning I can idle lower at 650 if I needed to and in gear sit at 500 w/o concerns—- I am not doing so! Way better for in gear idle speed.
idle quality improved.
engine was quieter and that is from my neophyte wife in the car, and I both. Interesting.

Timing tape:
From 10, crack throttle, I see advance smooth to like 22 or so (if I recall, I wasn’t taking good notes yet) and then w/o a glitch advance continues seamlessly to 36.

I pulled plugs, one each bank, before anything. Dropped my crap after work and pulled plugs.
Lean, maybe a bit more lean, then add a helping of lean.

Straps are grey and clean, timing mark is in the threads, that’s how bad it was.
Insulator, w/o cutting one open, I would be happy eating out of the base—— way down to the bottom, it is a surgical clean. The thought of a fuel ring is a joke at this point.

I found no splatter, absolutey nothing. So maybe the rattle, brief as it was, left no trace. But I also never put the engine to test after the first rattle . I have maybe 20 miles total on engine following conversion since Saturday when the transmission became a living organism again.

Drivability improved dramatically, just don’t open the secondaries and if you do bring a lunch and an afternoon snack.
it is so lean it makes zero power.

The cool part- no ping. Not matting it, high load, wot at 15 mph in second gear, etc. Immune completely. That’s uuuge!

Saturday I will remove the platinum corks and make matters worse as flow will go up. I will install the dual wideband. I will try to get an edelbrock tuning kit shipped in, I have zero speed shops here and I drive by edelbrock group headquarters daily in Olive Branch MS. Sad. I’ll get some fuel in the mix and make it happier, then rework the timing. It’s just too lean to attempt anything.

that will give me a chance to tune the Squirt on trans maps.

Dang- ported my brethren!
Damned GM distributor guys——

Appreciate you Bobby and Walt!

 

[corerftech]

Following up.
So went to the exhaust shop and had some platinum removed. Had no idea, pass side forward had completed evacuated into the secondary. ZERO exhaust flow. Well, it runs better now.

But came home to now, with new exhaust handled, reset timing, idle mix and was hoping the mailman woudl show up with my Edelbrock calibration kit. The hurricane staved him off for two days now.

Fast forward:

So I had backed my vac advance can to the legal limit and apparently the set screw removed itself as the instructions warned about. So I had minimum vac advance on what is not PORTED signal.
I pull the can, run to the hardware store looking for a thread pitch that would match. Chinvirus JEGS HEI POS.... uses some unknown pitch.

To fix, I dawn a 6-32 tap, run it all the way down the nipple, til the diaphram is at max (ensuring tthreads and relief all teh way down). I then modify a 6-32/1" allen set screw and grind about 50% of it to a smaller diameter, about 1/3 smaller. I thnk grind a groove for signal to pass by threads, and install. I test by mouth at full in and full out positions. Works like a charm, uses a US made allen wrench of correct size, the allen head end can be seen about 1/8 inch from the end of nipple and has bookoo thread engagement. I reinstall and test. Works perfect, now I just need to back off the advance as it is a bit much at this point. I reset back to 2 turns from full as it was shipped.

Now then here is the BS ChinaVirus hell hole I have gotten into.

The JUNK JEGS (Jegs Sucks) HEI distributor was checked for tiing when I got fhoem this morn from a 20 min drive each way from muffler shop. Nice and hot, perfect time to set everything before I manage some fule changes on now a free flowing exhaust. I look at timing with a low cost strobe as it is simple.... I am stuck at 26 degrees at idle and no wonder idle is at 1100 when my settigns are for 880 (park, not drive). Holy hell?? Did the distributor slip? Nope.
So I dig in and figure out the mechanical advance is sticking even with the ChinaJegsJunkPOS super high intensity return springs installed. Further testing indicates that after about 10 mins run time, heat soak is causing the rotor mount plate to bind to the advance backing plate. A BURR, a Jegs Employee from ChinaVirus, a shoe, a piss poor fitment, welded shaft distortions, something is causing a bind when expansion occurs. I must now take the dist apart and relieve the plates so that I can get a snap return. Shortly ago, after a transmission curve setting test drive, I came home to find 31 degress fixed at idle. Thank God I have not left CRUISE mode driving.

Anyway, is my CHINAJEGSSHI$ POS distributor really saving me any money at $90 or will I spend $6000 in labor to make the $90 viable? Junk Shi$ China POS JEGS CRAP. Jegs Sucks.
Lucky I guess.

 

[corerftech]

I had never torn apart a distributor. Found a great silent video of an hei de/re assembly.
I may retract in part my comments on the JehsChinaVirusPOS but only slightly.

I found the driveshaft coked up and only 50 miles and probably 90 minutes to 2 hours of driveway testing. That coke had embedded itself in the advance support plates and the bushings causing a terrible bind. I was able to inspect the bearing surfaces once cleaned and verify that there was a high spot on the support plate where the rotor mount bar rides. After cleaning, a polish at the bushing surfaces with Scotchbrite, and a few file strokes across the airport plate to remove the high spots, I put it back together. In hand it flings violently now, but even with the metal bind the bulk of the bind stemmed from the coke.

The photo in last post should indicate where some of the crankcase pressure came from that could force the coking of the shaft and bearings. Also at first startup following the fuel side conversion, I ran the stock 5.0 valve covers. PVC was essentially the filler neck vent plumbed direct to the carb base. There was no breather for say 30-60 minutes of basic tuning. Later I installed a pair of cheap used valve covers with proper breather and pcv valve vent.
I believe the coking came directly from the blocked exhaust on passenger side.

I pulled the distributor as found and took a picture for positioning. Couldn’t be easier right? Put back together and reinstalled it fought me mating with cam. I guess I missed by a tooth. Chased my tail with a car that would not run. I was alone and couldn’t see a timing light/timing tape and crank at same time. Son came home late, helped as the second set of hands, I figured out I missed a tooth.
3 mins later it was running and being tested. Timing is back at 10, slams back to 10 as it should. Back to curving the distributor and readjusting the vac can. That little debacle killed the very short weekend for me and I’ll have to wait until next weekend to install the AFR meter and start carb calibration. Back to work tonight.

 

[bobbywalter]

yeah..... thats ..... yeah.

 

[corerftech]

Following up:

Installed the Two channel AFR meter this morn and was able to start to dial things in. I mentiomed in another thread my ChiCom HEI distributor all coked up from a backed up exhaust system (cat failure). After remedying that and getting the AFR meter installed, I set idle mix by combination of both vacuum (to prove that when highest vac/highest idle method is used, that both banks of the engine are healthy by refereing to AFR. Both banks are twins. I then set Idle AFR (mix) to about 14.5 and adjusted globally all the things that arre normal. 10' timing base with about 5' of VAC (ported) and about 34 all in at about 3000 rpm, I took it for a drive. No ping, it wanted more timing so it seemed and it was very FAT off idle to WOT.
I gave it 12' for about 36 total, with the prior silver and gold spring combination. That pinged scary when the mechanical came in full (87 octane).

I jumped the gun knowing it was so fat that it was going to be impossible to tune furthter till some fuel was cut. I initially went 2 steps on metering rods (Edelbrock 1905) larger and drove again. Much leaner but still 10 AFR at WOT, 11.5 just going down the road. I added back the 12' of timing and that was a bad thing. It just doesnt want more than about 32-34.

I decided that the distributor curve was coming in too early (but really not). What I wnet back to was a black heavy spring with a silver (so HVY/MED). This would raise the All in RPM much closer to my redline of 4500 rpm, but would also truncate the mechanical advance as it will NEVER full advance by redline (at least in theory). Took it for a test drive with vac disco, what a difference. Essentially Im using springs to limit the advance at this point, rather than an advance stop device. I was able to add back some vac for a total vac of about 12', plus the 10' base, plus the mevchanical that just gets to max about 500 rpm short of my redline. Not the best way to skin the cat but, the engine likes it.

I tried every rod increase I could to get the base primary jet to lean out and was successful but cruise AFR was still 12 ish. I pulled the primary and went down 6 numbers (next jet in the kit) and went back to the thin rods. This really cut fuel an my off idel afr was in the 16's going around the block and stumbling badly. But if you crack past the stumble afr would fatten up. I was still running the stock 5" primary springs, I went to the 8". My engine at idle is still almost 22" of vac. The metering rods were staying down far too long, but the rods were the correct size for the job.
Changing springs was a huge hit. That gave back fuel off idle much earlier and the primaries were superb. AFR at WOT was still mid 10's at the hit and mid to low 11's.

I worked the springs up and down plus wnet back and forth on one rod up/down for each of the two springs. The 8" spring with one size smaller jet and a rod change has produced 14.5 at idle, 13.5 cruise but only at extremely light throttle positions, thereafter it rolls to 15 where I would like the cruise to be. If you blip the throttle, it enriches nicely to 12.5 and you are off and rolling.

WOT is still too fat. I would like to be at 12.5 as when in 3rd gear, the airdoor has opened, carb flow stabilized, engine moving more air and that 12.5 point simply rolls like a banshee.
The secondary jet will be cut one step. That will likely alter the overall AFR towards leaner a tick, land the WOT where it should be sooner. The I will tweak the airdoor rate. I will need to buy a couple of jets as the kit only has one set of .095 and I will need likely another pair.

I believe the timing will take one more degree. Adding back the vac advance that had been prior pulled, adding a tick more initial and limiting (in a crude way with springs) the total mechanical for now is a winner.

Neighbors must think Im nuts. I have driven away and back at least 20 times for changes.

Bobby thank you for your support. Truck rips right now. And BTW: EFI never pulled to 5000 like this. If I get this right, I can focus on trans tuning.

 

[corerftech]

Putting a nail in this thread.
Finished the tuning today. There may be another 1' of timing I can get initial, maybe a couple more of vac advance adjustment with a different/better can. Maybe a piston spring change, but unlikely.

I started this Sunday morning before church with a quick change to the advance springs, church drive was a good short test run. Last night after a 6 hour jetting session, I looked at the moroso chart for springs and expected advance rates. I had been running a HVY and a MED. Anything lighter just brings too much in and too fast. Again, as mentioned prior, I am using my 5k redline (which is really like 4k for the expected driving) and the HVY spring rate to control the total advance, in lieu of a mechanial limit device. I didnt sleep well but had an epiphany staring at the ceiling. I needed more total, and earlier but not exceeding the 4-5k window nor delivering too much early. This morn I traded the MED for LIGHT and left a HVY in. JOY! I would still like to invoke a limit device so I can use lighter springs and come in earlier with a bit more, but Ill do that down the road. Ill bet the curve relates well to the response I feel when driving. There is a slight funk to the advance with two springs fighting each other and not moving symmetrically linear. The curve is probably more like a big boob than a curve! For now, it is good enough for the forseeable future.

ChiCom junk HEI..... I am regretting not running a Squirt for spark as well. I would have been done with timing like 13 years ago, but much lighter in the wallet.

Carb tuning:
I finished with a 095 primary, 68/42 rod, 098 (stock) secondary. I got to thinking about the air door and how rich it ran until 4000 rpm (10.5 afr) at WOT but then it would drop to 12.5, shift through it and stay at 12.5. So in reality the 12.5 was the signature of the proper jet, I just needed to lean out the ramp to it. Also running the 8" primary piston spring. Prior I thought that jet was too big. The air door adds a layer of complexity to reading the jet need based on its booster timing influence.

I loosened up the air door and that took me to 15.5-16 at WOT. Ran really fast.... oh crap my pistons are melting....... And it lost the FAT 10.0-10.5 hit following the accelerator pump shot.
I moved the pump cam to the top (largest shot) and wham, that put me back in the game. That enriched sufficiently for the air door timing to be smooth without any blip up or down. I was ultimately able to adjust the airdoor for a 10.5 pump shot, immediate ramp to 12.5 and peaking to 13-13.2 with no wiggles, dips or bumps.

Left the carburetor with (and it wont change):

AFR
idle, park: 13.5-13.8 ish (extremely smooth idle)
idle, in gear: 14.0-14.5ish (extremely smooth idle, as good or better than EFI ever was)
(it idles rough up at high 14's and lo 15's and my wife wont be happy having to drive it that way)
IDLE SPEED roughly 900 rpm, in gear 725/750 rpm.

Accel from stop, initial 11.5 blip with immediate 12.5-13.5
Traffic/around town 10-40mph with some hills for loads (13.5-15, 14 ave, a little blip when the piston gives a nice 11.5-12.0 as you roll gently into it)
It could be fatter for a really great amazing driving experience but economy will falter
Any leaner and the driver will notice.

Tip in from traffic, 11.5 enriched on spring, leaning almost instantly to 12.5-13 (as above)

Cruise 55-80 mph, 14.5-15.7 (ill take the economy on those numbers and to get a quick 12.5, just roll in a tiny bit of pedal. It enriches quite nice on the current primary setup. The spring response with the jet/rod combo is pretty great both from driving and a AFR perspective. It could be much snappier a bit fatter but then again fuel economy will go bye bye. If this was a fun car to enjoy performance, the numbers would be vaslty different. I experienced those better numbers testing, I dont have the wallet to maintain them.

WOT- 12.5 to just below 13.0 period, following a brief stop at the pump shot of 10.0-11.0

No bog, no waiting, no flat spot. I wish there was a spring between 8 and 7 inches of vac.
I may try the 7 spring with no other changes one more time, but I think it will lean it too much on the low speed side. Low speed is very good and anything that would harm that would be an error to run.

Timing- 10.5 ish. No ping, even at a 5k shift point and under some test AFR in the 15's, but it was on the edge up at those hgh numbers. Not that I meant to do that! It may take one more degree. Still 87 octane fuel.


Fuel economy on first fill, back when exhaust was plugged like a toilet and everything was wrong: 12.5, and I never matted the throttle. I was putting around worried about incipeint failure! 160 miles of rich rich rich or poorly timed or plugged exhaust or TCU doing stupif things and 35 mph.

Fuel economy on second fill today. 10.2 MPG, with me pretty much at WOT the lionshare of the time, or trying to find a street in mexico I could go WOT. 76 miles of almost constant hammering the gas, shifting manually at 4500 and completing shift at about 5k. I expect that to translate to at least 15mpg when just being driven sanely and hopeful for far more. The EFI was commony giving me 15 in town with better on the open road, as much as 19-20. On EFI, I never matted the throttle, literally NEVER. Grandpa over here, with a tight grip on my wallet... God Forbid I spend any money that is not necessary.
All I have done for the last 24 hours is hold the throttle on the floor! Like I was trying to wear out the acc pump.

Is 10.2mpg pretty good for driving like I am the owner of a late model Hellcat in Memphis??

BTW: 248,000 miles on this pig. It has a hood from a junk yard donor that went 338,000 miles. That gave me hope that my 300,000 mile lifespan objective is reasonable.