1 ton ranger 460 or 390 swap

[Kubotaranger]

Im new too the forum so dont be to harsh, i have a kingpin dana 60 front and a sterling rear to go with it. I plan on shortening both to go under a first gen ranger. For engine options, i have a 390 and a t19 to go in it but im wondering if it would be better to spend the extra money and go with a 460. This build is on a super tight budget so id like to stick with the 390 cause i already have it. My goal for the motor is 350- 400 hp

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Is your 390 already making that kind of power?

If not get a spreadsheet going and compare the price to build. It might be cheaper to buy a 460 and build it than build a 390.

 

[Ranger850]

Where's Rusty when you need him? It seems like all he talks about is 460's in Rangers

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Those kind of power numbers arnt hard to acheive with either engine.

However, an FE will cost more in parts, and 460s can be snagged pretty cheap. Aftermarket is pretty even for both.

Personally, id sell the 390 and go with a 460. Itll be about the same in cost, and youll have much more room to grow.

But...

Dont discount the 400. They can be had even cheaper then a 460, but the aftermarket is weak.

I still say 460.

 

[Kubotaranger]

Those kind of power numbers arnt hard to acheive with either engine.

However, an FE will cost more in parts, and 460s can be snagged pretty cheap. Aftermarket is pretty even for both.

Personally, id sell the 390 and go with a 460. Itll be about the same in cost, and youll have much more room to grow.

But...

Dont discount the 400. They can be had even cheaper then a 460, but the aftermarket is weak.

I still say 460.

I actually have a 351m right now in perfect shape with a c6, would that be a valid option?

 

[Kubotaranger]

Is your 390 already making that kind of power?

If not get a spreadsheet going and compare the price to build. It might be cheaper to buy a 460 and build it than build a 390.

No the 390s in bad shape lol. But i like the t19s granny gear so ill be using it for sure. It seems like i can get a good 460 for about a grand here so ill have to do some research

 

[bobbywalter]

what are the goals for the truck? trailer trash mud hound? sand-dragger? dune ripper?











run whatever works that is cheapest.


stock the 351m and 400 are crap. better off with a 4.0/m5od till you build the engine you want. and the 351m or 400 can be built to perform very well.


i would not narrow the axles. your married to custom parts that a healthy big block is going to break if your running some tire that requires 1 tonaxles and big block power. get fat fenders and a bit of back spacing on the wheels...

 

[rusty ol ranger]

You could run the 351M.

A 4bbl, straight up timing gear, a good intake manifold and headers they can run pretty decent. But, it wont run like a 400 with those same mods.

That being said though, a 351M can become a 400 pretty easy with a 400 crank and rods. A 4.0 will not motivate a heaiver rig better then a 351M/400. The 351M/400 was designed for heavy cars with high gears, they are smooth, low end grunt engines.

If the 390 is junk, and the 351M is in good shape, id run the 351M just for reliabilty reasons. Plus, the motor mounts used for a 351M as well as the tranny bell would allow for easy swapping to a 460 later on down the line if you so choose. If you set it up for a 390 youre stuck with a 390 (or other FE) unless you redo motor mounts and bellhousing.

 

[Dirtman]

Personally I would just go with a 427 side oiler. You're only looking at an extra $15,000 so why not?

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Lemme put it this way....

The 1k (which seems lofty to me, but i dont know your location), youre thinking of dishing out for a junkyard 460, that you know nothing about, that may or may not be in good shape...would buy you all the mods i mentioned above, PLUS a 400 rotateing assembly to put in your 351M. Then youll have an engine you KNOW is reliable, and will perform just as good, if not better then a healthy, stock, 460.

The 390 i wouldnt even consider at this point.


Will the 400 make 350-400hp with what i suggested? No. But itll make gobs of low end, reliable grunt and youll have 1/2 (or less) into what you would a 460.

The 460 cheerleaders dont like hearing this, but compareing engines from the same era the 400 makes 80% of the 460s peak torque, and at less RPM, mostly due to its 4in stroke. So its not rocket science to conclude that with mods, you can surpass a 460 for torque.

Lemme tell you this...

I towed a 7000lb 32 ft travel trailer around for 2 years with my 77 F250. Thats a bone stock 400, saddled with a C6 and a 3.07 rear. Granted, it wasnt ideal keeping 55 up a decent hill, but it always pulled very well (considering the gearing) down low. To me, that speaks volumes as to how much grunt these things make.

I know yours is a 351M, but like i said, a 400 is just a crank and rods away.

 

[bobbywalter]

i guess first i would have to know actual goals of "budget" build...

budget i understand and hillbilly poor boy is my wheel house. i cant see anyone baggin on ya for doing something crazy....budget just changes with availability.


because you want a big block...460 is the obvious choice...they are all over the place....or 454. they are out there and in ok condition for good prices.





if you already have a running 351 or 400 power-train...certainly use it....or a big block chevy or 350 or old mopar....buick 3.8.

..whatever...

if it is complete fan to transfer case and runs good..get it in there. thats the beauty of a sas....tear the ttb k member out and do whatever pleases ya.



again. if your power-train hunting....and its going to be cheap...probably going to be stock pulled from an old beast....



stock.....m engines are not too easy to find...351 wheezed out from a 78 or so are crap for the proposed project if trail use is on the map...... yes a 4.0 will run away from those 351m engines all things being equal. they (the m engines) do make tq numbers at 2k rpm....real good if you consider sub 300 good... which is shameful for 351 cubes but they are what they are..but on the whole curve at the tire the 4.0 is right with it.

the 400 is a different deal...it for sure makes hard core low end if it is in excellent condition. thats what they do. but then they fall on their face at 4 k. good for crawlin...but wheel speed is not so much.. if prodigious wheel speed is a factor...none of these engines are good...

1) you can actually find running 4.0 and 5 speed for about same price most places. because they are cheeeeeep.

2) if you have not already hacked up the 86...it bolts in. gets you by while your building super engine.(see 15000 dollar side oiler)

3) they are much lighter and more reliable wheelin. but also rpm limited like the m.




still, to get by. money on 4.0.

 

[bobbywalter]

Lemme put it this way....

The 1k (which seems lofty to me, but i dont know your location), youre thinking of dishing out for a junkyard 460, that you know nothing about, that may or may not be in good shape...would buy you all the mods i mentioned above, PLUS a 400 rotateing assembly to put in your 351M. Then youll have an engine you KNOW is reliable, and will perform just as good, if not better then a healthy, stock, 460.

The 390 i wouldnt even consider at this point.


Will the 400 make 350-400hp with what i suggested? No. But itll make gobs of low end, reliable grunt and youll have 1/2 (or less) into what you would a 460.

The 460 cheerleaders dont like hearing this, but compareing engines from the same era the 400 makes 80% of the 460s peak torque, and at less RPM, mostly due to its 4in stroke. So its not rocket science to conclude that with mods, you can surpass a 460 for torque.

Lemme tell you this...

I towed a 7000lb 32 ft travel trailer around for 2 years with my 77 F250. Thats a bone stock 400, saddled with a C6 and a 3.07 rear. Granted, it wasnt ideal keeping 55 up a decent hill, but it always pulled very well (considering the gearing) down low. To me, that speaks volumes as to how much grunt these things make.

I know yours is a 351M, but like i said, a 400 is just a crank and rods away.

hmm...
that c6 with a 410 gear you would not have been able to go 60 mph.


the grunt is great. but range for a buggy like this is better.


last build i seen cost more then 1 k for the machine work and balancing to run rpm... 4 k in...it made 550 plus tq and 450 hp though. which is awesome.

but it comes at a cost for fuel.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

An OHV 4.0 makes 160hp and 220ftlbs.

An 351M, IIRC, makes 159hp and 295ftlbs.(Id have to dig out my 70s chilton to make sure, but i know the windsor in those years made 149hp and 290ftlbs, and the M was a touch stronger)

The 4.0 makes torque at 2400rpm.

The 351M makes it at 1800rpm.

So, more less, youll be in granny low and 4 low to crawl over the same thing a 351M would crawl over in 2nd and high range.

As far as RPM goes, bobbys right, they flatten out pretty hard at 4000 or so. But, just run some higher gears if you need the wheelspeed, youll have the torque to do it.

A stock 460 also starts huffing at 4-4500rpm. Its just the nature of the beast.

I really, really, think that 351M, or 400 if you so choose to build it, will satisfy what youre wanting, assuming you want a general purpose, good all around rig.

....and like i said, set it up for a M engine, and if you get bored with it a 460 will slide right in.

 

[Kubotaranger]

what are the goals for the truck? trailer trash mud hound? sand-dragger? dune ripper?











run whatever works that is cheapest.


stock the 351m and 400 are crap. better off with a 4.0/m5od till you build the engine you want. and the 351m or 400 can be built to perform very well.


i would not narrow the axles. your married to custom parts that a healthy big block is going to break if your running some tire that requires 1 tonaxles and big block power. get fat fenders and a bit of back spacing on the wheels...

Itll be an all-around farm truck but ill enter it in local mudbogs and stuff, the reason for shortening the 60s is that the trails around here are more for quads and in my 4runner i could go through any of em. plus i got them for free. But with the motor i think a 460s the way to go for the cheapest power

 

[Kubotaranger]

I think ill put the 351m in it for now with a straight up timing set and a 4 barrel, then later when more money comes along opt for the 460. Im 15 right now so thats why im being cheap lol, anyways thanks for the quick responses its really appreciated.