Timing Issues

[Mosinman76254]

Here's what I have done so far:

Let the engine warm up to normal operating temp.
Shut it down.
Hooked up my timing light.
Disconnected the SPOUT connector.
I started the engine and checked the base timing.
I was around 15 degrees BTDC ... A little ahead ,I know.
Then I reconnected the SPOUT connector and the base timing did NOT change. It doesn't even change when you rev it or hold an idle at 2,500.
I remember reading in ALLDATA that if the ICM is bad it MAY do this to keep the engine running.

My question is this:
Is the ICM bad or is this more of a PCM issue.

 

[Mosinman76254]

To update this thread I have confirmed that I do NOT have an (ICM) ignition control module. I will keep updating this thread till I get this issue resolved. Then hopefully no one else has to go thru this frustration!

 

[fastpakr]

You definitely DO have an ignition module. Is the truck throwing any codes?

 

[fireguy12117]

i have to get my wiring diagrams in front of me to be more sure about this, but is sounding like it may be an issue with the ICM.

IIRC, its the ICM that actually produces the advancing in timing.

when doing your same procedure, i did get a 10degree base with the SPOUT out, and when it was in, i had surely more then 10degrees out at idle. when flicking the throttle it would change and seem to respond accordingly.

 

[Mosinman76254]

Update:
I'm a dumass. I was disconnetcing the octane shorting bar or whatever it is. NOT the spout connector. The spout was taped inside of the plug for the ICM so that's why I never saw it.

Now after testing it the RIGHT way...
When the spout is disconnected it DOES hold base timing of 10 degrees. Once you reconnect the spout it advances as it should.
I am not getting any codes.
It isn't advancing when you rev it tho, just stays put at around 12/13 degrees, with the spout connected. This I know cuz I have an inductive timing light.
It's also burning rich as hell. When you do a cold start it's leaving a black spot of carbon on my grass. I am using Autolite double platinums and have them gapped at 50. The coil is also new but: When you test spark you get a big blue happy spark on the 4,5,6 side. When you test the 1,2,3 side you get an orange spark which seems weak but all cylinders are firing. I pulled the plugs when i found this and there is some ashing on the plugs in cylinders 1,2 and 3. 4,5 and six looked great. This is a rebuilt 95, 4.0 with the comp cams 49-410, the injectors were replaced new from Ford.
Hope the additional CORRECT info helps to diagnose this problem.
I apologize for screwing everyone up with my previous posts

Thanks

 

[AllanD]

This topic seems like.... Deja Vu... from a string of PM's...

Can't imagine why...

I seem to vaguely recall asking if you were disconnecting the spout
or the Octane shorting bar...



AD

 

[Big Jim M]

Update:
I'm a dumass. I was disconnetcing the octane shorting bar or whatever it is. NOT the spout connector. The spout was taped inside of the plug for the ICM so that's why I never saw it.

Now after testing it the RIGHT way...
When the spout is disconnected it DOES hold base timing of 10 degrees. Once you reconnect the spout it advances as it should.
I am not getting any codes.
It isn't advancing when you rev it tho, just stays put at around 12/13 degrees, with the spout connected. This I know cuz I have an inductive timing light.
It's also burning rich as hell. When you do a cold start it's leaving a black spot of carbon on my grass. I am using Autolite double platinums and have them gapped at 50. The coil is also new but: When you test spark you get a big blue happy spark on the 4,5,6 side. When you test the 1,2,3 side you get an orange spark which seems weak but all cylinders are firing. I pulled the plugs when i found this and there is some ashing on the plugs in cylinders 1,2 and 3. 4,5 and six looked great. This is a rebuilt 95, 4.0 with the comp cams 49-410, the injectors were replaced new from Ford.
Hope the additional CORRECT info helps to diagnose this problem.
I apologize for screwing everyone up with my previous posts

Thanks

Soot from a cold start is normal for most engines.. The engine is chokeing itself for the first start.
A small yellow or orange spark is all the fuel needs to fire.
I'm guessing you haven't checked the timing when the engine is at operating temp. When cold it most likely doesn't advance the timing where it does at temp.
Big JIm

 

[Mosinman76254]

This topic seems like.... Deja Vu... from a string of PM's...

Can't imagine why...

I seem to vaguely recall asking if you were disconnecting the spout
or the Octane shorting bar...



AD

You're right Allan and it was your PM that made me look on Alldata to see what the spout actually looked like. When I saw TWO wires I said shit, no wonder why he suggested that!

 

[Mosinman76254]

Soot from a cold start is normal for most engines.. The engine is chokeing itself for the first start.
A small yellow or orange spark is all the fuel needs to fire.
I'm guessing you haven't checked the timing when the engine is at operating temp. When cold it most likely doesn't advance the timing where it does at temp.
Big JIm

Yes Sir Jim... it was up to normal temp when I put the timing light on it.

It's blowing soot when you rev it up sitting in Park at normal temp. It's blowing black smoke when you pull out from a dead stop too.

I'm going to try a cash for clunkers ignition module today, hopefully it's a positive change!

 

[fireguy12117]

ok...i am just going to throw this out there since i saw the werd 'rebuilt'.

who rebuilt it? did you double check your casting numbers to verify the right heads were put on?

 

[Mosinman76254]

ok...i am just going to throw this out there since i saw the werd 'rebuilt'.

who rebuilt it? did you double check your casting numbers to verify the right heads were put on?

I rebuilt it, ya I know I said I was a dumass but this ain't my first rodeo. It is the first Ford I ever rebuilt tho and probably the last.

The same heads were used that came off of it. The dude that gave the truck to me bought it new so I didn't consider checking numbers. The heads were gone over at a machine shop, he cut new seats, installed new guides and milled it 13 thousands. Not sure if I had put this in already but I have 150 lbs of compression in all 6 cylinders. I did get a code today, it was the EVP, (egr vaccuum pressure regulator), I replaced it but it just made the light go out, no change in anything else. I also installed new Motorcraft plugs today, the finewire OEM that belongs in it gapped at 054. No more autolites for this 4.0!

It was a no go at the junk yard today too as far as replacing the ignition module.

Fireguy... ask any question you want man, I apreciate the help.

 

[Mosinman76254]

This issue was resolved.
I replaced the EDIS or ignition control module, whatever ya wanna call it and now it's fine. Finally I get to see the power behind my fresh rebuild.

 

[fireguy12117]

awesome

i was tossing that out there because i had it happen to me. i went with a machine shop rebuilt long block because it was my first rodeo. looking back, i feel like a moron...with a couple more tools and some guidance i coulda niped this in the bud on my own- anyhow- the machine shop basically screwed me and put a later model head on the block and what a disaster...also, there was another ongoing thread with someone that had an exploder. turns out he had the exact same situation with someone else rebuilding the motor and F'in it up. he basically went through all the same hoopla i did for a set of mismatched heads. one of the things was messing with the SPOUT and checking rechecking and checking again the timing.

the bright side is how much i did learn.