The autumn years of the ICE should be the golden years for the ICE.

[sgtsandman]

I see commercials on the TV to reduce usage after 9pm, its says to do laundry in the daytime. Then I read, hear, and notice, electricity is cheaper after 7pm, when all the 9 to 5 office buildings shut down for the night. Its very conflicting.

Just like pretty much anything else the government is pushing anymore. They say one thing over here and another over there. But we are the idiots...

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Haven't we gone through this stuff like a thousand times already?
- EVs are more harmful to the environment to manufacture than similar ICEs, but quickly get cleaner than a comparable ICE, even if they get their power from coal. And coal is being phased out quickly. With electricity that's cleaner than coal, they make up the difference even faster.
- Not all EVs have to be expensive luxury vehicles (Kia/Hyundai, GM, VW and Ford offer EVs with at least 250 miles of range under the average new vehicle price). It's just that OEMs have figured out that they're more profitable that way. For what it's worth, the Lightning EV is actually cheaper than an ICE F150 with the same layout and options, and as battery cost/kwh continues to decline there will be more EV options at more prices.
- Over time, even these expensive EVs will depreciate and become available for less money on the used market. It's not much different than saying that poor people can't afford a new BMW. But go into a rough neighborhood and you're bound to see some baller on a budget driving a 15 year old 3 Series or X5. Used EVs could be a huge benefit to lower income people since they're cheaper to operate and require less maintenance.
- Charging at home is super fast and convenient. It's an obvious benefit for those that can do it, and cheaper than public charging. If you can't charge at home, then owning an EV is more hassle but that situation is improving all the time as infrastructure is built out.
- If society wide environmental improvements are the goal, then full EVs with 300+ miles of range probably aren't the best approach. We could get far more miles driven under EV power with the same amount of resources by splitting the batteries into smaller ones and installing them into PHEVs.
- EVs don't work for every single person or use. There are things that they struggle with. But they are a pretty good fit for more and more people all the time. If they don't work for you, or you don't want one then don't buy one. It's pretty simple.

Long trips are a pain in the ass, forget towing any distance, remembering to plug them in every night, lack of parts availabilty, lack of service in general, not even touching on what will happen when they do trickle into the used market and the batteries start going bad...suddenly your 5000dollar power wheels needs a 20,000 dollar battery.

Youre right though....i wont buy one. What im worried about is being forced into one by the government or 35/gallon gas.

They also are marketed "upscale" because rich folks buy them as play toys. Thats all they are.

Set aside the enviromental bullshit and they have ZERO advantage over a ICE. Except for "uhhhh muh accleration"....

That you have to push a button and wait 30 minutes to prepare for.

Im out.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

heard about another with a CNG compressor v8 engine using half the engine to power it say that it wasn't an engine since nothing was attached to the back...

These are the same people that are going to make the earth colder if you just pay a 15% global tax.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

These are the same people that are going to make the earth colder if you just pay a 15% global tax.

.....and the same people who think climate change is man made. Because ya know....we can control things like that.

 

[stmitch]

Long trips are a pain in the ass, forget towing any distance, remembering to plug them in every night, lack of parts availabilty, lack of service in general, not even touching on what will happen when they do trickle into the used market and the batteries start going bad...suddenly your 5000dollar power wheels needs a 20,000 dollar battery.

Youre right though....i wont buy one. What im worried about is being forced into one by the government or 35/gallon gas.

They also are marketed "upscale" because rich folks buy them as play toys. Thats all they are.

Set aside the enviromental bullshit and they have ZERO advantage over a ICE. Except for "uhhhh muh accleration"....

That you have to push a button and wait 30 minutes to prepare for.

Im out.

Yeah, like I said, EVs aren't perfect. That doesn't mean they're not better overall than an ICE for what many many people do, or that all EV drivers are idiots because you don't like EVs.
They require far less maintenance than ICEs. They're far more convenient if you can charge at home or work. The cost per mile varies based on a ton of factors but is often much lower than a similar ICE. And on top of all that, they're a lot cleaner over the life of the vehicle ("environmental bullshit").
As for battery replacement costs, want to price out what a new engine and trans costs from a dealer these days? Most battery failures are small cells within the packs. They can be replaced or repaired much cheaper and cleaner than a whole pack swap. And battery costs continue to drop. They're almost down to $100/kwh these days. That would be about $8500 in an 85kwh pack. $15k for battery pack replacement isn't much different than $15k for engine/trans replacement at a dealer.

 

[superj]

but you hardly have to replace an engine. you do 100% have to replace batteries. that is my main issue, and its not a big issue to me. i think about getting one for my wife for our in town car but when we ahve to leave our little rinky dink town, we would take a gas powered vehicle.

i can get gas, even if there is a zombie apocalypse. electric cars will be done if any kind of real serious disaster goes down. look at texas when it froze last year.

 

[pjtoledo]

I see commercials on the TV to reduce usage after 9pm, its says to do laundry in the daytime. Then I read, hear, and notice, electricity is cheaper after 7pm, when all the 9 to 5 office buildings shut down for the night. Its very conflicting.

meanwhile in the parts of the country that have big seasonal changes the highest demand time in winter is the middle of the night when the solar panels don't work.
if it happens to be a nasty blizzard type of night the wind turbines are also shut down, they can't handle high winds.
in the summer highest demand is the middle of the afternoon on hot days when there is no wind for the turbines.

here in Ohio we don't have many, if any, commercials telling us when to use power.

as an added side note, I'm within 10 miles of THE Jeep Factory, and a major GM Powertrain factory that makes light truck transmissions.
neither are overly concerned with fuel consumption.

 

[superj]

if we have those kind of commercials, i don't see them either. but i don't watch tv so that might be why

 

[stmitch]

but you hardly have to replace an engine. you do 100% have to replace batteries. that is my main issue, and its not a big issue to me. i think about getting one for my wife for our in town car but when we ahve to leave our little rinky dink town, we would take a gas powered vehicle.

Do "you 100% have to replace batteries"? Most are going 300k miles or more, and that's with Tesla's shitty quality control for most of them:

How Does A Tesla Hold Up Over Nearly Half A Million Miles?

Some say Tesla batteries will likely outlast the cars themselves, though that's not always the case. Nonetheless, many Teslas have endured the test of time.

insideevs.com

A look at Tesla battery degradation and replacement after 400,000 miles

In this new installment of our series on the highest-mileage Tesla Model X (and one of the highest mileage EVs...

electrek.co

Most ICE powertrains are in need of some serious maintenance at the 300k point too, and they've likely needed 100 oil changes and a bunch of other smaller repairs along the way. OEMs are getting better all the time at understanding how much of the battery capacity to use, charging rates to allow, and managing temps properly to extend life. The average American drives about 13k miles per year. If the battery lasts 300k and then explodes, the car would be 23 years old when it was time for battery replacement.

i can get gas, even if there is a zombie apocalypse. electric cars will be done if any kind of real serious disaster goes down. look at texas when it froze last year.

Are zombie apocolypses really something that people consider? Fuel pumps and cash registers run on electricity too. If the power's out, you're not getting new gas. Solar or a natural gas backup generator could keep an EV charged for a good long while.

 

[dvdswan]

It's all a viscous circle...

CO kills you, electronics give brain cancer, and the health insurance/pharmaceutical companies keep us living longer.

It's all about the greedy dollar....

 

[sgtsandman]

Do "you 100% have to replace batteries"? Most are going 300k miles or more, and that's with Tesla's shitty quality control for most of them:

How Does A Tesla Hold Up Over Nearly Half A Million Miles?

Some say Tesla batteries will likely outlast the cars themselves, though that's not always the case. Nonetheless, many Teslas have endured the test of time.

insideevs.com

A look at Tesla battery degradation and replacement after 400,000 miles

In this new installment of our series on the highest-mileage Tesla Model X (and one of the highest mileage EVs...

electrek.co

Most ICE powertrains are in need of some serious maintenance at the 300k point too, and they've likely needed 100 oil changes and a bunch of other smaller repairs along the way. OEMs are getting better all the time at understanding how much of the battery capacity to use, charging rates to allow, and managing temps properly to extend life. The average American drives about 13k miles per year. If the battery lasts 300k and then explodes, the car would be 23 years old when it was time for battery replacement.



Are zombie apocolypses really something that people consider? Fuel pumps and cash registers run on electricity too. If the power's out, you're not getting new gas. Solar or a natural gas backup generator could keep an EV charged for a good long while.

If it’s a long term grid down situation, the natural gas is going to a no go as well. Something has to pump and pressurize the gas lines. More than likely, it’s electric.

Solar will hold up the longest until the cells start failing. Supposedly, that is around the 10 year mark.

In the end, everyone will be back to traveling on an animal or by foot.

 

[Snoranger]

Since we’re talking “zombie apocalypse, the worlds going to end” type situation here, this may help some people:

 

[scotts90ranger]

Could we just agree that there is no one solution to the issue like all the greenies seem to think there is?

If you drive less than 10k miles a year, a plug in car is likely fine, but shouldn't be forced to make this decision...

If you have a life and go outside and do stuff and are an automotive enthusiast that is outside the scope of what is available for the moment...

If there was a diesel hybrid truck as an option that would have promise, but that doesn't seem to be on anyone's scope, trains have been doing that for over a century...

We (as a society in general) need to stop with the division, everything anyone does anymore they think their opinion is the only one that can be right, we need to just come up with better solutions and have them as options instead of "You're wrong, stop doing that, listen to me because I'm right, your hobbies are dumb and they shouldn't be a thing!" because that does NOT help, it just makes people want to keep doing something dumb or do it dumber, like say a earth day tire fire...

Let this sink in, in all of California's brilliance with their rolling blackouts they are planning on this small engine ban including all engines under 25hp, including generators, stating you should just have plug in options, for a generator, that people are buying so they can plug things in, in a blackout situation... the government in that state does not live in a real world, they probably buy their meat in the grocery store so no animals have to be harmed...

 

[Blmpkn]

Why is it a bummer for the company I work for as a manufacturer?

The throttle by wire pedal we make for the xxxx ICE sports car is same as the xxxxx EV sports car.
Instead of tooling up to make electronic fuel injectors/throttle bodies, we tool up for electric motor controllers .
Instead of casting aluminum engines, we cast aluminium battery trays.
Instead of assembling an automatic transmission, we assemble and electric motor drive

Rest of the car is pretty much the same.

We get paid the same...

I'm not saying anyone has to buy and EV but the economics are there;

Using friend's Telsa Model X and another's Ford Edge (2.7) for comparison:

breaker	amps	volts	kW	Model X - mph charging	hours	range	cents/kWh Iowa average	cost
15	12	120	1.44	5	8	40	12.53¢	$0.18
50	40	240	9.6	25	8	200	"	$1.20
mpg (EPA) Ford Edge	distance (matching EV)	Regular unleaded $/gal	cost		Saving (per day)	Savings - 30 day month
20	40	$2.49	$4.98		$4.80	$144.00
"	200	"	$24.90

For the moment, for me personally, the $144/mo isn't enough to cover the justify purchasing an EV (my Ranger is paid for). But triple the cost of gasoline, and it's probably time to move. (By that time, I'll be retired and taking a little longer might not be as big an issue).

Swapping batteries has some technically issues (serious power at the connectors, weight) and political (no one wants to "trade-in" their brand new battery for some 5 year old ones with 80% of the capacity, looks - no one wants a tacky add-on battery pack on their new car).

I have a hard time seeing ICE replaced in next 20 year for farm machinery - so power intensive. Farmers will probably be able to sell you black market diesel...

p.s. I think it is a tribute to @Jim Oaks and the members/mods, that we can have this spirited discussion without name calling.

If I worked for one of these company's who's claimed that they'll be all electric by 2035 or whenever... id be bummed out. Especially if I was somebody who's made and lived their life by engineering things related to ICE. There's definitely a percentage of employees that feel like i do.

Electric motors don't give a vehicle the same kinda soul that an ICE motor does.

I'm not impressed by how fast electric vehicles can be. I mean honestly... no shit a teslas fast. That's what electricity does lol. I'm not saying that they can't be fun.. but I'd definitely have WAY more fun in a comparable ICE vehicle.

Electric cars are akin to getting your jollys to a girlie mag. Simple, easy, minimal hassle...

A badass ICE vehicle is like finally having success in getting to shag the super way too hot girl from high-school. Infinitely more satisfying.

Some people like the easy way out.. I prefer to work at it a bit.

 

[sgtsandman]

A diesel-electric vehicle would be awesome. I’m sure there is a reason it hasn’t become a thing like it did with trains.

Like mentioned, there is no perfect solution for everyone as far as a one thing fits all solution.

There is also no “free lunch”. everything has an environmental impact. As to which one is most important, it depends on who you ask.