Symmetric vs asymmetric tread

[Ranger850]

@Blmpkn @ericbphoto
My people.

 

[JohnnyO]

What makes a good snow tire? I would have thought that it'd have the same characteristics as a mud or sand tire. By looking at pics, most snow tires have many fine grooves and some have studs. My current guess is these snow tires are meant for street usage and bite into a thin layer of compacted, icy snow. Would offroading in deep snow need the same type of tire as mud?

For a good snow tire you want a tread with a large number of small edges, like an A/T or dedicated snow tire.
M/T's have a small number of large edges and will skate on top of the snow.

Directional tires will have arrows molded in the sidewall for the rotation direction. You can only rotate them front-to-rear on the same side.
Asymmetrical tires are not directional (except in rare ultra-hi performance cases) but have an inside and an outside and can be rotated side-to-side. I have Yokohama Avid Ascends for summer tires on my daughter's car and they are marked Inside and Outside on the sidewall.

 

[sgtsandman]

What makes a good snow tire? I would have thought that it'd have the same characteristics as a mud or sand tire. By looking at pics, most snow tires have many fine grooves and some have studs. My current guess is these snow tires are meant for street usage and bite into a thin layer of compacted, icy snow. Would offroading in deep snow need the same type of tire as mud?

While I'm not a perfect expert on the subject, I can give you the general gist.

1. The tread compound is softer for better flexibility and grip in cold weather since rubber gets harder as it gets colder just like much everything else. That is also why they need to be swapped out for another tire as soon as practical once the snow stops and the weather is getting warmer. They will wear out in not time.

2. The tread pattern is made of small blocks and small groves to trap the snow instead of expelling it like a mud tire does. From my reading, snow is the best thing to grip snow, thus why the tires are designed to trap it and keep it on/in the tire tread.

3. The tread also has a lot of sipping in the tread blocks for trapping even more snow and to help with ice traction.

4. Winter/snow tires also provide a provision for metal studs to be inserted in the tread for better performance on ice. The catch is that they must be installed when the tire is new to prevent potential damage to the tooling that installs the studs. If there is any rocks or debris in the stud holes, they will damage the installation tool. Also, if you live in an area that doesn't have the roads covered in snow and ice a lot during the winter season, the studs will wear down pretty quickly and will be useless in a season or two.

That's about it in a nut shell.

As far as the off roading part, a winter tire performs pretty well. Not the best choice for sure, but in a pinch they will get you down the trail pretty far. A good All Terrain would better and have preformed pretty similarly to a winter tire in the ice and snow but will have a better tread design for dirt and mud and better durability due to their more rugged construction. As far as a mud tire, off road they might be fine but are not great in snow and ice on road. Tread design makes a difference but the tread design was made for a different purpose, most of it the opposite of what you want in a winter tire.

 

[James Morse]

Found this symmetric tire!
Mickey Thompson | Baja Pro XS (mickeythompsontires.com)
Unfortunately does not come in 15".

 

[2011Supercab]

Found this symmetric tire!
Mickey Thompson | Baja Pro XS (mickeythompsontires.com)
Unfortunately does not come in 15".

But it's a directional tire, I thought you didn't want directional tires.

 

[Ranger850]

But it's a directional tire, I thought you didn't want directional tires.

I think he prefers "symetrical" over "directional", but I'm kinda confused if he's wanting them or just wants to know "if" they exist.

 

[Ranger850]

Unfortunately does not come in 15".

15"ers are becoming as obsolete as the 14". Most stock rims are 17" or bigger these days and that's what the tire companies are wanting to sell.

 

[James Morse]

Did I say that? If so I must have had brain fade. The original objective was find off-road tires that will look the same side-to-side and there's no way that can happen without them being symmetric, unless they are symmetric longitudinally but not side-to-side. A lot of tires spec'd by mfg as directional are not symmetric in any sense so they will not look the same on both sides.

All symmetric tires will be directional if not per mfg then directional because of the fact they (almost always) aren't symmetric in a longitudinal sense - it would look (and maybe act?) very strange to put them on mounted the same face both sides, think of v-tractor tires, you'd never do that. True you can only rotate on the same side unless you remount them.

I'm making the distinction between directional tires where the mfg has arrows on them (don't know if these do) and those are often -not- symmetric (won't look the same side to side); and tires that are directional just because you'd want to mount them so they look/act the same side to side but there's no arrows on them or requirement to do so except how you want them to perform.

The only way you can have a symmetric tire that is not directional (in either sense, per above) is if it is not only symmetric side to side but also longitudinally. Then it doesn't matter how it's mounted because it's always the same. You don't see that much, if you do it's readily recognizable and makes for a king of boring tread pattern, which is maybe why they don't do it. Military tires would be an example. Which I don't think you find in my size. I'm not convinced they are horrible, especially if you watch those old WW2 vids of them going through mud, they at least seem good for that, but probably not a great highway tire.

This (XS) is the only symmetric off-road tire I found so far (not counting military). They will look the same side-to-side, assuming you mount them to look that way, which you would. It's very rare. Of all tires I have seen, this is the only one that qualifies so far (and of course doesn't come in my size and probably not appropriate for me either).

There are only four combinations:
1. Not symmetric in any sense (most tires). It doesn't matter how you mount them, they'll never look the same. Most mfg-spec directional tires are such as well as most tires period.
2. Symmetric side-to-side only (like the XS). You mount them so they look the same (different faces). Very rare if not nonexistent in a tire I could use.
3. Symmetric longitudinally only. You also mount these to look the same. Some (not many) mfg-spec directional tires may be such, but they're usually racing or special-purpose tires.
4. Symmetric in both senses. Doesn't matter how you mount them they always look the same (military, perhaps others, but you don't see them much if at all).

I am pretty much resolved to the fact, I'm not going to find off-road tires that fit my truck that will look the same on both sides of the truck. That's life, accept it, and move on.
Unless someone finds one for me.

Yeah I want them, if they're out there. It could be any of types 2,3, or 4 above. Probably would be type 2.

 

[James Morse]

If I change to 17" rims my take is that's going to give me less sidewall flex which is worse for off road.

 

[Ranger850]

If I change to 17" rims my take is that's going to give me less sidewall flex which is worse for off road.

I understand that thought, BUT, ALL of the current FX4 packages ( F-150, Ranger, & Maverick ) come with 17" rims/tires.

 

[James Morse]

So now I'm just more confused. I think you could even get 18" on the new Rangers?
I'll have to look and see what are the diameters on them.
Why are they doing this, it seems contrary to what you'd want? I'll be interested to hear others weigh in on this.
Still not sure I will find more symmetric tires that way but will look.
Bigger rims might look better.... but not sure I'd want to eat the cost of 4 (or more likely 5) rims just for looks.
Can't really go bigger than 31" without going outside the "green" range for my 3.73 and my stock lift.
No doubt that every inch you gain below the differentials is a help, but at some point you'll sacrifice on-road performance.

 

[Roert42]

The bigger wheels allow for larger brakes. On the later rangers with the 12" brakes the 15" wheels were modified with a lip inside the wheel for clearance, not all 15" wheels will fit.

The newer trucks are much more powerful, and also much heavier, so they need bigger brakes.


Of course some people like the look of the giant wheels small tires, so there is always that too.

 

[Blmpkn]

If I change to 17" rims my take is that's going to give me less sidewall flex which is worse for off road.

Well.. it depends how big the tire is. A tire on a 17 can have more sidewall than a tire on a 15" wheel.

That being said... a 17" wheel in a 31" would leave you plenty of sidewall for the kind of wheeling you'll be doing I'd imagine. I have 18"s and 32" tires and they're just fine.

 

[James Morse]

You have different truck than me though.... I guess I'm concerned about going to 32" but if clearances are ok I suppose it's possible.
I'm wondering if apart from looks does it gain me anything. And that's if one thinks they look better.
The tires you have would run quite a bit higher price than 265/75R15.
Plus rims, that could be a grand easy, I figure probably 2500-3k by the time you get done.
Not sure what a larger rim does for me off-road, seems like, nothing, if the diameters are the same, like 265/65R17 vs 265/75R15 vs 275/65R17. The last one is 31.1", diameter ok, but would width be ok too at 275? Wider tire might be worse for off road...
It does open up different possibilities if I change rims just not sure it's worth it from a performance-only standpoint.

 

[Roert42]

you may find tires for larger wheels could be cheaper, smaller sidewall for the same size, also more volume.

You could also look around for used wheels/ tires. 5x4.5" lug pattern is very common, jeeps use them as well. Shouldn't be too hard to find a used set of 16" or 17" wheels with that lug pattern.