Support the REPAIR Act

[oldgeek]

Wonder how many neurons had to be activated to come up with an acronym that has "Equitable" in it?

Every bill should have it.

 

[19Walt93]

I didn't read this particular bill but encountered them in the past when I was a service manager. Dealers have to pay Ford for access to online training and all but current model year info, in 2017 when I retired the "value package" cost us just North of $5000 per year. It wasn't mandatory that we buy it but no online training means certifications expire and warranty claims no longer get paid, so it was mandatory if you wanted to stay in business.
Without spending the money, time, and effort to do the Ford training- which they do not have access to- giving independents access to more diag info would create more problems than it could ever fix. I never kept track of training expenses but it had to run $8000+ per year for my 8-11 tech crew.
ASE certification is barely better than worthless, their cert tests are multiple choice and teach exactly nothing, an untrained chimp would statistically get 25% right. From my decades of experience, most independent shops don't know what they don't know. The good ones know when to send their customer to a dealer or sub out the job themselves.
If this bill passes and someone gets electrocuted trying to fix an EV they really aren't qualified to work on, their survivors will probably sue the manufacturer for making "dangerous" information available. Don't laugh, in Connecticut people can sue gun manufacturers if their product performs as designed and someone uses it to illegally kill another person.

 

[Josh B]

Wonder how many neurons had to be activated to come up with an acronym that has "Equitable" in it?

Every bill should have it.

I thought that had something to do with money or finances, but a trip to my trusty old 2001 Merriam Webster (which doesn't change the definitions at regular intervals) claims it to be a very simple ": JUST : FAIR"

 

[PMitchell08]

I'm sorry, but I cannot support this.

I hope the right to repair gains traction in Canada and the rest of the world too.

 

[PMitchell08]

I didn't read this particular bill but encountered them in the past when I was a service manager. Dealers have to pay Ford for access to online training and all but current model year info, in 2017 when I retired the "value package" cost us just North of $5000 per year.

Without spending the money, time, and effort to do the Ford training- which they do not have access to- giving independents access to more diag info would create more problems than it could ever fix. I never kept track of training expenses but it had to run $8000+ per year for my 8-11 tech crew.

$8,000/year seems reasonable for that amount of information and training, I would be concerned if a shop was investing less to keep their staff qualified.

ASE certification is barely better than worthless, their cert tests are multiple choice and teach exactly nothing, an untrained chimp would statistically get 25% right. From my decades of experience, most independent shops don't know what they don't know. The good ones know when to send their customer to a dealer or sub out the job themselves.

As the owner of my vehicles, I will make the risk-benefit analysis myself when I decide on DIY vs private shop vs dealer service department on any given service, I don't need the dealership service manager deciding for me. Many services don't require anything more than an untrained chimp like myself with access to proper tools and the service manual.

If this bill passes and someone gets electrocuted trying to fix an EV they really aren't qualified to work on, their survivors will probably sue the manufacturer for making "dangerous" information available. Don't laugh, in Connecticut people can sue gun manufacturers if their product performs as designed and someone uses it to illegally kill another person.

Being able to sue and being able to win a lawsuit or settlement are different things. Frivolous lawsuits are much less common than your media would have you believe, it's exceedingly rare for an individual or family to be able to prevail in even a small way against any size of business in court. If that's the risk that we run in order to have the freedom to service our own vehicles, then it's a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[19Walt93]

You said" As the owner of my vehicles, I will make the risk-benefit analysis myself when I decide on DIY vs private shop vs dealer service department on any given service, I don't need the dealership service manager deciding for me. Many services don't require anything more than an untrained chimp like myself with access to proper tools and the service manual."
I'm not sure what a service manager would be deciding for you. A service manager or advisor is supposed to explain what's needed to your satisfaction so you can decide what work will be done. Many independents don't spend anything on training and nearly all use aftermarket scan tools- many set up to display the tool's "best guess" about the failure instead of a list of DTCs that would require a tech to pinpoint the problem. There are a handful of decent independents around here but they're in the minority.

 

[fastpakr]

You act like dealerships are nearly perfect and independents are inherently suspect. That's a remarkably absurd position to hold.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

The neat thing like on ag stuff is they only train back so far. Like they think stuff goes away like cars.

So then you have a huge era of equipment ag techs are not trained on and have no experiance on and independants are greatly limited on.

My dad has an independent ag shop and is swamped with 60's-90's equipment the local JD has no idea how to fix.

 

[SenorNoob]

...So then you have a huge era of equipment ag techs are not trained on and have no experience on and independents are greatly limited on.

My dad has an independent ag shop and is swamped with 60's-90's equipment the local JD has no idea how to fix.

That's interesting. I've noticed in industrial maintenance that machines tend to stay the same just get controller upgrades for that reason.

 

[19Walt93]

You act like dealerships are nearly perfect and independents are inherently suspect. That's a remarkably absurd position to hold.

Dealership techs at least have access to training, most of my crew kept up with the online courses and I sent them to classroom training once they completed the prerequisites. There is no equivalent in the aftermarket, sometimes jobbers will put on one night "training" events that might have some benefit but are mostly geared to promoting stuff they sell- and I don't fault them for it. Their training is better than no training. The most talented tech working without up to date information is going to struggle.
We often fixed vehicles that had been to independents multiple times with no results, no one ever came back or called to tell me they had someone else straighten out our work.

 

[Bill]

Reading through the bill, I’m at a loss at to what this bill is addressing.

Maintenance information and access to vehicle generated data is already available. Is this bill wanting all this to be provided for free?

Aftermarket parts and getting your vehicle serviced at an independent garage are already available. Are they wanting the vehicle warranty to cover this?

If your vehicle is under warranty, dealer determined parts and service are dictated by the warranty but the option to get work done elsewhere and using aftermarket parts are available outside of warranty coverage at the customer’s cost. Expecting the vehicle warranty to cover work and parts by an independent shop is unreasonable. You want the costs covered, go to the dealer or a manufacturer approved facility and expect OEM parts to be used.

It depends on the vehicle and what you are repairing. Some manufacturers use proprietary diagnostic tools that aren't readily available. Right to repair is also about more than just vehicles. Most of the electronic stuff we have can be repaired, but some of the manufacturers have made it difficult for anyone other than their "authorized" repair centers to obtain the parts. Or, they intentionally price the parts so high that people don't repair things like a button, cracked screen, or a battery.

Right to repair movement goes Deere hunting

www.politico.com

 

[sgtsandman]

I can see 19Walt93’s side of it just because I’m a professional mechanic of sorts myself but the other side as well as a private vehicle owner that has seen hack job work from independent shops as well as dealerships.

Some independent garages are opened up by former dealership techs and do great work and I’ve seen dealerships with trained techs that do poor work that even the most basically trained mechanic would know better not to do.

In any case, I feel everyone should have access to the same information and ability to repair their vehicles and equipment. Stuff like what John Deer is doing is near criminal.

 

[Roert42]

That's interesting. I've noticed in industrial maintenance that machines tend to stay the same just get controller upgrades for that reason.

Most industry equipment manufacturers jeep the same stuff until the electronic manufacturers completely discontinue a platform. Got to get your monies worth out of that.

Then you make some good money retrofitting all the old machines because you can’t get the parts.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

That's interesting. I've noticed in industrial maintenance that machines tend to stay the same just get controller upgrades for that reason.

Mechanically stuff has changed quite a bit in design between here and there.

Changes in electronics have been huge too.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

This is why we need to go back to carbs and duraspark