Stiffer Valve Springs?

[Airmaster]

Is there any advantage of using stiffer springs if I upgrade to 1.8 rollers?

I've emailed tom morana back and forth and he says the only thing that may be helpful with the rockers is some stiffer springs.

He wants 320 for the spring kit plus shipping, and he wants 400 for the rockers plus shipping.

Anyone have any advice? I definitely want the rockers and if the valve spring job isnt too hard I'd like to try them out.

 

[bobbywalter]

Is there any advantage of using stiffer springs if I upgrade to 1.8 rollers?

I've emailed tom morana back and forth and he says the only thing that may be helpful with the rockers is some stiffer springs.

He wants 320 for the spring kit plus shipping, and he wants 400 for the rockers plus shipping.

Anyone have any advice? I definitely want the rockers and if the valve spring job isnt too hard I'd like to try them out.

if your going to wring it out allot get the springs.

if you have higher miles get at least fresh springs.

 

[Airmaster]

if your going to wring it out allot get the springs.

if you have higher miles get at least fresh springs.

I like to wring it out once in a while for the fun of it, probably do it about once a day on the empty road close by my job.

A friend of mine told me it would be too much trouble to do the springs, but I say why not if I have the valve cover off.

Do you know of how difficult it is to do? Do I need to remove anything other than what is removed for the rockers?

 

[bobbywalter]

I like to wring it out once in a while for the fun of it, probably do it about once a day on the empty road close by my job.

A friend of mine told me it would be too much trouble to do the springs, but I say why not if I have the valve cover off.

Do you know of how difficult it is to do? Do I need to remove anything other than what is removed for the rockers?

probably a potential disaster if you have to ask.

with a manual and some loaner tools you can do it easy enough though if you can install rocker arms. i use the rope method often to hold the valves up over air, its usually easier for me doing it that way. the locks are sometimes an issue....make sure the new springs and arms are compatible with current locks/keepers. morana is a top outfit so i am sure you wont go wrong with their preferred combinations, though i would try to haggle a better deal then what you listed here.

 

[Airmaster]

probably a potential disaster if you have to ask.

with a manual and some loaner tools you can do it easy enough though if you can install rocker arms. i use the rope method often to hold the valves up over air, its usually easier for me doing it that way. the locks are sometimes an issue....make sure the new springs and arms are compatible with current locks/keepers. morana is a top outfit so i am sure you wont go wrong with their preferred combinations, though i would try to haggle a better deal then what you listed here.

I've taken apart an aircraft recip engine in school, but it's been a long time since I've had my hand inside another recip engine, specifically a car engine. I have my hands inside turbine engines all the time, unfortunately it does me no help in this situation haha.

I've seen the instructions for the roller rockers and I am fairly confident I can do them by myself, the valve springs... well I've never done them, my boss, who happens to have years of experience tearing engines down told me, "there's not enough Samuel Adams in the world to get me to help you on that job."

But he basically says its not worth doing in the first place. I, on the other hand want to do it for two reasons... experience and the fun factor of working on my engine, and the fact it'll allow me to rev it up and take it down the road in fashion.

If I have the tools and a helping hand I know I can tackle it. Does putting the piston at TDC work too. And how exactly does the rope method work? Oh and exactly what tools would be required?

Sorry to ask so many questions and to blabber on, but I'm still trying to figure if this is gonna be worth it.

BTW thanks for the tip on haggling, I didnt even think to push the prices a bit.

 

[Rearanger]

Is there any advantage of using stiffer springs if I upgrade to 1.8 rollers? tom morana says the only thing that may be helpful with the rockers is some stiffer springs.

Why, are you going to get valve float? Tom didn't say what the "may" be, but he will make an extra $320 - go figure. Does the kit come with (or need) shims? If so you'll need a valve spring compression tester and height measuring tools. Rope method will take a lot of time and be a PITA, you'd be better off using compressor method, for which you'll need another tool and compressor. TDC won't help with removing springs unless you use the rope method and possibly if you leave the cam in. I'd remove the cam as well.

But he basically says its not worth doing in the first place

He's right but you've already made up your mind so I don't know why you're even asking here for advice.

 

[martin]

I would'nt even attempt changing springs on a v type motor while it's in situ. It's enough of a pita. on inline motors where you have reasonable access.

 

[Rearanger]

I would'nt even attempt changing springs on a v type motor while it's in situ. It's enough of a pita. on inline motors where you have reasonable access.

Certainly access is the big question, outside need. I changed my valve seals on a 12 valve 3L V6 Mitsubishi engine with little access issues using the compressor method. I don't know what access issues there are in a Ranger that might make the valve spring job even less of a cost benefit than it is now.

 

[Airmaster]

Well if the springs do not pose any welcome help Ill just do the rollers by themselves, I just want to know from a technical perspective whether the springs would help.

With the rockers Im already taking the Valve Cover off, so I've thought to myself why not. I like revving the snot out of it sometimes, and this sounds like it'll be a failsafe.

Yes I made up my mind on the rockers, but the springs are still in the air. Im leaning towards them from the response I got from bobby, but I'm still up for listening to any other comments/ideas while i save up the money for em.

 

[Big Jim M]

What is the purpose of a stiffer spring? Some might ask.. Well here are some skinnys..
What most shadtree mechanics have never THOUGHT about is what really goes on inside an engine.
The PISTON actually STOPS TWICE in each revolution.. That's right STOPS DEAD! So from stop at the bottom and stop at the top that damn thing MUST be traveling at some real speed, huh?
Well the reason for a stiffer valve spring is to MAKE the valve move faster than the piston that is chaseing it!!
As the valve starts to close the piston is closeing in on it... If it follows the design of the camshaft, the piston CANNOT catchup and HIT the valve. However at ultra high rpm if the spring is a little too weak, the cam lobe is traveling so fast that the spring cannot keep the valve (LIFTER in our application) in contact. So the piston will catch it and all hell breaks loose.
The reason Corvettes have stiffer valve springs than pickup engines is simply because of RPM! The Corvette cam allows a great many more rpm than the pickup camshaft..
So, in short, If I was running higher rpm I'd WANT stiffer springs.
Big Jim

 

[bobbywalter]

Why, are you going to get valve float? Tom didn't say what the "may" be, but he will make an extra $320 - go figure. Does the kit come with (or need) shims? If so you'll need a valve spring compression tester and height measuring tools. Rope method will take a lot of time and be a PITA, you'd be better off using compressor method, for which you'll need another tool and compressor. TDC won't help with removing springs unless you use the rope method and possibly if you leave the cam in. I'd remove the cam as well.



He's right but you've already made up your mind so I don't know why you're even asking here for advice.

i dont agree at all. wth these good nylon works great and is fast. i go in the same order as you would lash if they were solids....replaced valve seals on many different rbv's and freshened spring lifters rockers. seals suck ass and i have to work the crank and valves at times and really prefer not to do it.

but, with more ratio on the rocker, springs are important as you seem to know cause shims etc can come into play to get the right height, though in this case the matched springs will likely eliminate bind potential along with float potential from over working old springs...i am not sure the springs are matched for that but he will have to ask. installed height and rate matching is important....but hard to say exactly whether critical.

 

[cush]

What is the purpose of a stiffer spring? Some might ask.. Well here are some skinnys..
What most shadtree mechanics have never THOUGHT about is what really goes on inside an engine.
The PISTON actually STOPS TWICE in each revolution.. That's right STOPS DEAD! So from stop at the bottom and stop at the top that damn thing MUST be traveling at some real speed, huh?
Well the reason for a stiffer valve spring is to MAKE the valve move faster than the piston that is chaseing it!!
As the valve starts to close the piston is closeing in on it... If it follows the design of the camshaft, the piston CANNOT catchup and HIT the valve. However at ultra high rpm if the spring is a little too weak, the cam lobe is traveling so fast that the spring cannot keep the valve (LIFTER in our application) in contact. So the piston will catch it and all hell breaks loose.
The reason Corvettes have stiffer valve springs than pickup engines is simply because of RPM! The Corvette cam allows a great many more rpm than the pickup camshaft..
So, in short, If I was running higher rpm I'd WANT stiffer springs.
Big Jim

big jim this begs the question of, why change them if you cant rev the engine any higher than the factory will allow? sure the higher rocker ratio will give a lot more lift, but will it be enough lift that he'll need that extra pressure to close them that much faster at the high rpm?

plus if i were going to change the springs i'd just yank the heads off and replace the head gaskets, plus changing springs with the head off is super easy.

 

[Rearanger]

So the piston will catch it and all hell breaks loose.

Interference or non-interference engine?

 

[Airmaster]

i dont agree at all. wth these good nylon works great and is fast. i go in the same order as you would lash if they were solids....replaced valve seals on many different rbv's and freshened spring lifters rockers. seals suck ass and i have to work the crank and valves at times and really prefer not to do it.

but, with more ratio on the rocker, springs are important as you seem to know cause shims etc can come into play to get the right height, though in this case the matched springs will likely eliminate bind potential along with float potential from over working old springs...i am not sure the springs are matched for that but he will have to ask. installed height and rate matching is important....but hard to say exactly whether critical.

Alright! Now we're getting some headway, my next email to Tom is on its way...

 

[cush]

Interference or non-interference engine?

i say interference. im pretty sure most modern engines are since you couldnt build the compression to get any power or efficiency out of a non-interference engine

i might be worried about getting too stiff of springs though because you CAN tulip valves