Starter grinding problem

[danielp3344]

OK, back in July I bought this truck. At the time the transmission had been removed to replace the infamous slave cylinder but the owner had given up and parked the truck for at least 3 years before I towed it home. Upon arriving home I installed a new slave cylinder, put fresh gas in the tank and a new battery under the hood and started it up. The starter relay stuck on the very first crank, but only once or twice after that (maybe once every 50 or so starts). It drove perfectly fine for about a week (500 miles) then started having issues. I won't go into those here but they were all fuel/spark related, and ended with me replacing the ECM for an aftermarket one (something I had been wanting to do anyway). In the process of tuning this new ECM (which involves a lot of stalling the engine and restarting) I started to notice the starter grinding a little. After some research I learned that the starter bolts could be loosened and the starter pushed back into the block to fix it, which it did. But the noise came back not long after (maybe 20 starts?). Repeating the procedure helped, but each time the grinding came back a little sooner, untill eventually it was basically impossible to start the truck. I'd like to say I'm really not the kind of person to throw parts at a problem like this, but around this time I was supposed to be driving somewhere in a few hours and didn't really have other transportation so I went ahead and put another starter in it, advance auto only had a reman one but again I was rushed so I bought it and put it it. It cranked great for about 20 or so starts but then went back to grinding, regressing much faster than the first starter (This time less than a day). So the next day I pulled the starter and noticed a ton of play in the shaft, the gear could probably wobble close to .1". So I took it back to advance and they replaced it, this one seemed much better. I put it in and exactly the same thing happened, it started great a few times then very quickly regressed to just making a grinding sound when you hit the key. Just now I pulled this starter and found both the ears where it bolts to the block had cracks going through them...

So that's about where I'm at, The truck is a 2.9 obviously, 4x4 with a 5 speed, around 150k miles. Here's a picture of the flywheel:

http://0x0.st/iGhL.wav
http://0x0.st/iGhL.wav Here's the sound the factory starter was making right before I replaced it. Hopefully some of you have ideas.

 

[RonD]

It was a common issue, have the read thru here: https://www.therangerstation.com/forums/index.php?threads/1989-ranger-starter-problem.150592/

 

[danielp3344]

Man I feel stupid for not finding that thread sooner. So is the only solution to buy a ford starter?

 

[RonD]

I am not sure, never had that issue myself, but there are more than a few threads about it here and at other Ranger/Ford sites

I think there are a few reasons for this to happen so I don't think its a "one size fits all" thing
Stripped bolt holes
Shims needed or not needed
Block plate missing or worn out<<thin metal plate between block and bell housing, it aligns starter
Cheap replacement starters
Worn out ring gear
????

 

[danielp3344]

My holes aren't stripped, there is a block plate in that picture you can see, it is a bit beat up but it's there. where would shims go on this starter? I don't really see how you could change the alignment that way. Again you can see the ring gear in that picture, which looks OK to me. The starter is in fact a cheap replacement but I'm hesitant to go spend $250 on a genuine one...

 

[RonD]

Shims hold starter farther out in case its hitting ring gear and pushing starter gear up at an angle??

Not sure, like I said never had one do this

 

[danielp3344]

I've seen people talking about using the 4.0L starters, do they fit?

 

[danielp3344]

I took the starter apart, there's a little bronze bushing inside the starter drive that's broken into several pieces and the wobble in the gear is back. I'm looking at either a 10 tooth starter drive or a 4.0 starter at this point.

 

[danielp3344]

I just ordered a 4.0L starter, we'll see how that goes. If anyone has any ideas I'd really love to hear them.

 

[RonD]

@PetroleumJunkie412 help

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

@PetroleumJunkie412 help

This is a world I dont want to live in.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

OK, back in July I bought this truck. At the time the transmission had been removed to replace the infamous slave cylinder but the owner had given up and parked the truck for at least 3 years before I towed it home. Upon arriving home I installed a new slave cylinder, put fresh gas in the tank and a new battery under the hood and started it up. The starter relay stuck on the very first crank, but only once or twice after that (maybe once every 50 or so starts). It drove perfectly fine for about a week (500 miles) then started having issues. I won't go into those here but they were all fuel/spark related, and ended with me replacing the ECM for an aftermarket one (something I had been wanting to do anyway). In the process of tuning this new ECM (which involves a lot of stalling the engine and restarting) I started to notice the starter grinding a little. After some research I learned that the starter bolts could be loosened and the starter pushed back into the block to fix it, which it did. But the noise came back not long after (maybe 20 starts?). Repeating the procedure helped, but each time the grinding came back a little sooner, untill eventually it was basically impossible to start the truck. I'd like to say I'm really not the kind of person to throw parts at a problem like this, but around this time I was supposed to be driving somewhere in a few hours and didn't really have other transportation so I went ahead and put another starter in it, advance auto only had a reman one but again I was rushed so I bought it and put it it. It cranked great for about 20 or so starts but then went back to grinding, regressing much faster than the first starter (This time less than a day). So the next day I pulled the starter and noticed a ton of play in the shaft, the gear could probably wobble close to .1". So I took it back to advance and they replaced it, this one seemed much better. I put it in and exactly the same thing happened, it started great a few times then very quickly regressed to just making a grinding sound when you hit the key. Just now I pulled this starter and found both the ears where it bolts to the block had cracks going through them...

So that's about where I'm at, The truck is a 2.9 obviously, 4x4 with a 5 speed, around 150k miles. Here's a picture of the flywheel:
View attachment 50076
http://0x0.st/iGhL.wav
http://0x0.st/iGhL.wav Here's the sound the factory starter was making right before I replaced it. Hopefully some of you have ideas.

I listened. That poor thing.

Guessing megasquirt ecm? My tunes are in the tech forum if you think they'd be useful.




Either way. Which transmission are we working with? There are 5 manuals for 1988 if memory serves - m50d and fm146 2wd and 4wd, and I think tk2wd.

Which side are the ears cracked? Block side?

Very possible thats the problem if starter catches and moves in its perch.

Did this start before or after the ecm change? If after, 2.9 is very sensitive to timing. Mine likes 20deg idle, taps out to knock at 41.5deg at 5600 on 93. They HATE advance under 600rpm. I can get mine to lope at 450 but timing drops all the way to 6deg load dependent. Cranking is 14-18 if memory serves.

Are motor and trans original? If someone trans swapped and didn't change starter plates, angle could be wrong.

@adsm08 and @Shran are better versed on the engine/trans combos available and swaps, they'll know what questions to ask better than i

 

[adsm08]

Remove the starter alignment plate and inspect the holes. Last time I had something like this happen the plate had a hole or two, right around the starter, that had gotten egged out.

Since new ones are NLA, the fix was to weld it in a bit until it was no longer egg shaped, and then grind the welds flush. It's been working well for almost a year now.

 

[danielp3344]

The ECM is a speeduino, the grinding started with the stock ECM and the first starter died before I could get it fired up for the first time with the speeduino. Timing could have been part of it, I had an issue with rising/falling edge triggers on the dist which caused cylinder 1 to be much more advanced . But I'm %90 sure that issue is resolved at this point, I could check with a timing light if the #### thing would crank over.

I'm pretty sure it's an M5OD, I'll try to get the tag # today. When I say ears I mean the mounting holes on the starter, both have cracks running through one side. The trans seems fine.

@adsm08 By starter alignment plate do you mean the large one bolted between the engine and the trans? or am I missing a part...

For those asking about engine/trans swaps I have no idea. The truck came with an engine and trans that happened to fit, they sure looks like the factory ones but this truck has definitely been handed around a bit (I think I'm at least the 4th owner) and there's a lot of other dumb stuff on this truck (an ugly K&N style air filter sitting right on top of the engine, the ugliest shift knob you ever saw, etc). Like I said I'll try to get some numbers for you guys today.

Thanks for all the input so far.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

If the trans has a removable pan, its a fm146 or tk. No pan is an m5. Door tags will tell you what its supposed to have.

Very interested in the speeduino build. Tinkered with one. Would like to see some of the programming surrounding it.

And yes, plate is big piece of tin between engine and trans.