spark plug gap

[Bob Ayers]

Your stupid arrogance and condescension aside, you are omitting the resistance created by cylinder pressure from compression. I'm not talking about the damn air gap with the plug out of the engine. I'm talking about what the circuit sees in order to create enough voltage for the spark to jump the gap.

Whatever this is supposed to mean, it doesn't make sense.shady

Shady (aka jimdandy) you have a reputation of not knowing what you are talking about, and many have called you on your BS!!

Your posts in the Pulseplug thread was great example of your lack of technical understanding, and ability!

The gap resistance is going to be infinite in the combustion chamber also! When you compress air, the dielectric constant changes,
the resistance doesn't change!!

That's it....if you want to continue arguing, you will be doing it by yourself.....

 

[mrscullini]

man, what have i started? what i thought would be a simple questions certainly has turned out to be quite a pissing match.

anyway, my coil pack in not marked with numbers, even with the crap wiped off. can anybody give me the wire sequence and location?

 

[shadetree]

Shady (aka jimdandy) you have a reputation of not knowing what you are talking about, and many have called you on your BS!!

Ayers, if you want to talk about reputations, I will bring yours over from FTE. I don't mind being called on anything as long as it is civil. Let it drop, and if you can't debate a subject without being an asshole, stay home.

Your posts in the Pulseplug thread was great example of your lack of technical understanding, and ability!

You assume too much. My thoughts on the plugs was the concept or idea of the plug, not the device itself. Transformers have a rise and fall time. The idea of getting all of the energy produced by the transformer and storing it so all the energy can be discharged at the same time is a good idea, if it can be made efficient/economical, and improve results. You did not show any technical data to back up your "assumption" that the devices are worthless.

The gap resistance is going to be infinite in the combustion chamber also! When you compress air, the dielectric constant changes,
the resistance doesn't change!!

This is what I was referring to, Dr. Probst is discussing how the dual plug circuit works:

"On it's compression stroke, the cylinder pressure is high, requiring higher voltage to overcome the RESISTANCE of the air-fuel mixture to fire the spark."

Quoting from Dr. Charles O. Probst, SAE, from his book, "Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control"
Plug gap plays a part, else gaps would stay the same no matter the engine.

That's it....if you want to continue arguing, you will be doing it by yourself.....

That is fine with me. No one wants to debate with you anyway. You have managed to piss off most everyone who debates with you, and you even got one member banned. Do us all a favor and clean up your arrogance and disrespect, or move on.

 

[shadetree]

man, what have i started? what i thought would be a simple questions certainly has turned out to be quite a pissing match.

Not to worry, it's an old fight. Everytime Ayers gets a chance, he tries to slam me. I guess it's insecurity on his part in knowing that someone else knows more than he does about automobiles. After he bought his Ranger, he became an instant expert.
You know the ploy, attack first and draw the attention away from yourself.

anyway, my coil pack in not marked with numbers, even with the crap wiped off. can anybody give me the wire sequence and location?

I don't have sohc data here at home, it is at the shop. Here is the sequence for a pushrod engine, and I don't think there would be any difference. shady

Coil pack:
3 4

2 6

1 5

front of engine.

This info from Haynes. Most of the late V6's are the same. I hope it helps. shady

 

[MAKG]

Shady, Bob's right on this.

Spark plugs are distinctly non-Ohmic, so it makes no more sense to talk about its "resistance" than that of a switch. All gaps have a breakdown voltage where the resistance changes (more or less discontinuously) from infinite to zero.

The physics is essentially ionizing the medium. It DOES matter what's in it. But resistance is futile. It's about breakdown voltage (which is also distinct from dielectric constant, though that also changes with medium).

 

[shadetree]

Shady, Bob's right on this.

Spark plugs are distinctly non-Ohmic, so it makes no more sense to talk about its "resistance" than that of a switch. All gaps have a breakdown voltage where the resistance changes (more or less discontinuously) from infinite to zero.

The physics is essentially ionizing the medium. It DOES matter what's in it. But resistance is futile. It's about breakdown voltage (which is also distinct from dielectric constant, though that also changes with medium).

Read my quote from Dr. Post. I'm not talking about the plug itself. I am fully aware of the actual resistance in the plug gap, air, etc. I am understanding both you and Ayers to be saying that plug gap doesn't make a difference in the resistance the cicuit has to overcome to fire the plug. According to Dr. Post, there is a difference. shady

 

[MAKG]

Shady, you're confusing resistance and breakdown. And your source is f**king it up to try to make it "clearer," which fed your misunderstanding.

The resistance of any circuit with zero current is infinite. Period.

The breakdown voltage is a function of gap, and a function of medium. It's what you have to overcome to fire the gap. It is not related to resistance. There is SOME (small) resistance in the plug (and a ballast resistor, if there is one), and this is what determines the amount of current drawn out of the coil. If you add it to zero, you get something. If you add it to infinity, you don't.

 

[shadetree]

Shady, you're confusing resistance and breakdown. And your source is f**king it up to try to make it "clearer," which fed your misunderstanding.

The resistance of any circuit with zero current is infinite. Period.

The breakdown voltage is a function of gap, and a function of medium. It's what you have to overcome to fire the gap. It is not related to resistance. There is SOME (small) resistance in the plug (and a ballast resistor, if there is one), and this is what determines the amount of current drawn out of the coil. If you add it to zero, you get something. If you add it to infinity, you don't.

No, he is making it simple. The circuit "sees" the gap as an obstruction to current flow(resistance). Once the medium is "ionized" the circuit overcomes the resistance and jumps the spark gap. We can get deep, deep, into the physics of this, but, imo, it is easier to understand as stated by Dr. Post. The plug gap effects this process.

The other end of the coil is tied to another sparkplug. There is little pressure, and little ignitable mixture in this cylinder due to it being on the exhaust stroke, so it has very low resistance to current flow, and the circuit sees it as a ground point. shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

man, what have i started? what i thought would be a simple questions certainly has turned out to be quite a pissing match.

anyway, my coil pack in not marked with numbers, even with the crap wiped off. can anybody give me the wire sequence and location?

Here is the layout of my 3.0L coilpack. I wouldn't think that the 4.0L
would be any different:

 

[Bob Ayers]

.. and the circuit sees it as a ground point. shady

WRONG again, there is NO ground point in the coilpack secondaries for Ford's
EDIS. The engine block just acts as a conductor to complete the circuit between the two secondary terminals,
a path to GROUND is not needed:

 

[shadetree]

WRONG again, there is NO ground point in the coilpack secondaries for Ford's
EDIS.

Let me restate what I said:

and the circuit SEES it as a ground point.

I did NOTsay there was a physical ground. The circuit at that point has very little RESISTANCE so it can be considered that the circuit SEES it as a ground point. The spark jumps the gap on this plug also at low voltage, but does so easily. Does "waste spark" ring a bell?

This is another tactic of yours, twisting words/meanings to fit your needs.

shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

Let me restate what I said:


I did NOTsay there was a physical ground. The circuit at that point has very little RESISTANCE so it can be considered that the circuit SEES it as a ground point. The spark jumps the gap on this plug also at low voltage, but does so easily. Does "waste spark" ring a bell?

This is another tactic of yours, twisting words/meanings to fit your needs.

shady

No, I'm not twising anything!! You are confusing how a conventional coil fires, which is with respect to GROUND!! Again, there is NO GROUND in the
coilpack secondaries circuit with Ford's EDIS!!!


Yet another case of you trying to weasel out of posting BAD information!!

 

[Big Jim M]

I think I will jump in here... As a typical vehicle owner educated in govermnent schools, I feel I must make a comment.

I don't understand all the gobbeldygook about electricity and don't give a damn bout all the particulars! What I do understand and most others will also, is that the coil builds up voltage (pressure?) until enough is made to jump across the gap in the plug. A wider gap USUALLY takes more voltage to jump..

Now not being educated in private schools nor having a degree in electrophysics.. I don't need to know more than that to choose a plug and put a gap in it.. All the rest is readable but amusing to me. I grin everytime I read highly techinal postings that I KNOW others like myself get little out of.

Perhaps there should be a forum for engineers only! Where they can go and impress each other!
Big Jim

 

[shadetree]

No, I'm not twising anything!! You are confusing how a conventional coil fires, which is with respect to GROUND!! Again, there is NO GROUND in the
coilpack secondaries circuit with Ford's EDIS!!!

Please show me where I said there was a physical ground in the circuit. shady

Now not being educated in private schools nor having a degree in electrophysics.. I don't need to know more than that to choose a plug and put a gap in it.. .Big Jim

Basically, that is what I am trying to do, make it simple. Most do not have an idea of how the dis/edis circuit works. If you do not understand electronics, it might as well be a foriegn language. However, most do understand resistance, voltage, etc. Using any other terminology is a pure wast of time, and trying to be impressive, as you stated.

You are also right in your comment about spark plugs, and what you need to know. But, you know, you can't even discuss that without having to put up with a bunch of bullshit. This is currently going on in another thread. shady

 

[gotmudd]

Bob Ayers and Shadetree, grow-up and quit yer pissing contest to see who has the biggest dick, the OP has the info he needs and all you are doing is confusing the issue, everyone is entitled to they're opinion, besides, just like assholes, everyone has one. not to mention that you two contest pissers are making this a not very fun place to be. if i get my info wrong/or someone assumes it's wrong even though it's right, i just let it ride and try not to start a pissing contest, that's how people get banned. and am i sorry for jacking this, NO. but i am tired of hearing you two