Need Transmission Help Please

[Payitforward]

Got a rebuilt automatic transmission and converter from the local autoparts store that is tagged that it passed all performance checks at their factory. Put it in and have no front pull in any gear or rear drive. There was some fluid left in the transmission from their testing (don't know how much), I purged the lines and cooler and have added approximately 6 qts to the trans from the filler tube. The book says total C3 capacity is 8 quarts. About 1/2 quart came out the vent tube. Some when adding fluid engine off, some when engine ideling. Followed the book step by step on install. I did not add any fluid directly to the torque converter prior to installing the transmission (it should fill with the trans pump shouldn't it?). Torque converter bolts met up flush with the flywheel as the transmission met up with the block so I feel that the converter is fully seated in the trans. Have run the trans through all gears several times and get no response, have manually moved the gear selector through the gears at the trans, engine running and hear it clicking but no difference. I've run the engine maybe 7-10 minutes total since install, is that long enough to get the torque converter filled, all lines and cooler filled with fluid? I don't have a accurate way to check exact fluid level because the dipstick is from a F-150 not correct one for C-3. I don't want to run it too low or too high on fluid. I'm getting frustrated that we are missing something, ANY Suggestions? I don't want to sell as is get some money out of it when a running truck will sell for more.

It's a 1983 Ranger (small) 2wd C-3 automatic V6 engine
The young man that I'm mentoring is owner of truck and I'm helping him out with labor and tools not to mention garage space to work on his Ranger. Any help is appreciated. We are both getting very frustrated. Search under my log in for other postings regarding this truck and previous transmission questions posted. Thanks in advance. Payitforward

 

[baddis]

the only thing i can think of is the converter is not fully seated or you have a line that is plugged or kinked .

 

[Bruce]

Sounds like miss stabbed converter...meaning you did not converter all the way into the pump gears which in turn could have ruined the pump in which pump will not pick up the fluid and no pressure for the system.

just my first thought without being there..

 

[Payitforward]

Guys,
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll wait a few days to see if any ideas come in from other Ranger owners, if not a trans removal, re-installation is in my future. Should I need to add fluid to the converter prior to install?

 

[Tedybear]

This might get messy, but what the heck. Locate the 'feed' line that goes from the transmission to the external cooler. Remove it and point it into a catch pan or jug. Start the truck for a few seconds. If the pump is doing its job at all? You should have a very nice blast of ATF into the pan/jug. If so? The pump is fine.

Here's how I did the install in ours, (take it with a grain of salt) Installed everything, and all was 'dry' (no fluid, we also installed a new filter/pan gasket) Put in a gallon (4 qts) of ATF with the engine 'off'. Start the engine, and with it at idle...put in another gallon of ATF (manual for our A4LD states 9 qts for dry....more or less depending on the cooler used) After the 8 qts is in? Move the selector into each gear range..not just drive and reverse...but each one. It'll take several seconds, or a bit longer to engage due to it having to also now fill the servos/clutch actuators.. (my old ford car took about 20 seconds for the first engage!!) Once all is totally full (servo and clutch wise) it should go into gear within a second or two.

I'd be interested in knowing if you get a nice stream under pressure from the cooler line. That'll state clearly if the pump is doing its job or not.

S-

 

[Payitforward]

Can I assume that the feed line is the top line going into the cooler and the return line is the bottom line coming out of the cooler and going back to the trans?
(Letting gravity work the fluid down the cooler?)
And hey what's a little MORE trans fluid on the floor to clean up, seems a quart of ATF can cover the whole garage floor in no time at all. Thanks for the help.

 

[Payitforward]

No fluid pumping out at the upper line of the cooler at all. Well Shoot! Guess I'm going to pull the trans this weekend again, at this rate I won't even need to look at the book for the steps. I'll try to see if I can "stab" the torque converter and get it to set better. I've heard it takes three clunks to get it fully engaged. Anyway to know for sure when it is full engaged? Any way to know if I have distroyed the pump? Short of seeing metal shavings and hearing a death march?

 

[Tedybear]

Well..that sucks eggs.

And even if you pulled the wrong line? It should have pumped out the cooler in that event.

It should be 3 'clunks' or spots and the converter should be fully seated. (going off memory) When you remove the converter (and yeah...plan on a new seal just in case...it's cheap) Examine it closely, and the matching parts regarding the transmission. Look for signs of scraping/metal flakes/etc.. Also the shaft(s) coming out of the transmission that engage the internals of the converter.

Under normal circumstances, if this happens? It normally can trash the pump in short order. (any signs of metal flakes...safe bet it's also in the pan as well) Sadly even if the TC was fully engaged? If the transmission is tilted slightly forward/downward during install? The TC can (and usually tries to) slide forward or even all the way off!

ShadeTree Trick: After you are sure the TC is in all the way? You can use a small hand wrench and a bolt kinda borrowing the starter mount threads...Sense most combination wrenches have a built in angle at the box end? You can use that to your advantage, along with a starter bolt...and the hand wrench snugged against the face of the TC will hold it in place. We did that with our A4LD. Had the wrench snugged against the TC until it was just about into position...then unscrewed the bolt--wrench came out..Slide the unit into place..and rotated the TC bolts to match up with the flexplate. Once everything is lined up with an install, the bell housing is normally at a slight incline--so the TC won't be pulled off/out by gravity. The wrench is just there to ensure while trying to wangle it into position that it doesn't slide forward or off.

It's gonna be a very close examination of the TC, input shaft, pump shaft (if so used--not sure on the C3), and the part of the TC that actually mounts against the seal. Any damage to those parts? Yeah...not good. Then again you might get lucky and it didn't get damaged? But I'd inspect the snot out of it, and also inspect the flex plate for damage as well.

Best of luck with it!! Check the 'book' and that will state the actual 'clunks' the stabbing will take. (some books will also list a measurement using a straight edge, showing the distance from the 'snout' of the TC to the straight edge...that's the 'exact' method to know that puppy is all the way in.) (then again the book I've been using? Is the actual rebuild manual for our transmission, and not the standard general purpose manual)

Keep us posted on what you find...and be ready for fluid loss when you pull the TC...

S-

 

[baddis]

i usually try to stick my fingers between the converter and front pump through the starter area you shouldn't be able to except for the very tips of them. it is much easier on a gm tranny.

 

[Payitforward]

Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. I know that I heard one clunk as I set the torque converter, and never expected that a C-3 would require 3 clunks to properly stab the transmission. Just like Mom always said "try to learn something everyday". Some lessons are just more expensive and messier than others. Thanks again.

 

[Payitforward]

For those of you keeping score at home here is an update.

Pulled the transmission this morning and found only a couple of drips of fluid in the cooler lines (further proof that the pump was not pumping). The snout of the torque converter is scratched. The pump is way down in the transmission so I could not see it clearly. I put the converter on the shaft and spun it while pushing and did get some clunks (seemed like only two to me) but the torque converter is almost touching the inside back of the bellhousing so I can't imagine that it can go much if any further and by my measurments it's about 1" from front edge of trans to base of torque converter bolts. And that is about what I get when I measure the block to flexplate/flywheel distance. ?? I talked to a local transmission shop and they said to bring it in and they would look at the pump and see if it is trashed before I just repeat the same steps again. This time I know to fill the converter and totally drain the trans so I have a point of reference on the level of fluid in the system. I wonder if it is worth all the troubles...

 

[Tedybear]

As for the "Clunks" needed. Figure one clunk to engage the pump...and one set of 'clunks' for each set of splined shafts you see. If it looks like it's about to contact the bell housing at the rear end? (or in the case of an A4LD...it DOES! lightly contact it) Then I'd say it's all the way in.

You mentioned the snout is scratched? Where exactly--on the machined sides--or on the flat end. If the snout is scratched on the machined sides--Keep in mind this is where the front pump seal rides....It's gotta be 100%, otherwise it'll tear the front seal apart.

Please keep us up to date on the progress!

S-

 

[Payitforward]

The snout is scratched around the very end as well as at the end. This would be the furthest point the TC goes into the transmission. It is rough/scratched in this area as opposed to the smooth finished area of the snout from that point and closer to the torque converter ball. I can just get my finger tips in between the back of the torque converter and the inside of the bellhousing. I expect that the pump or final clunk engage area as been chewed up and that is why it won't slide back just a little bit more into the trans. Many thanks to all the sugestion and support as I learn the inner workings of a C3.

 

[Payitforward]

Trans shop confirmed what we were all believing, the torque converter was not fully set into the pump. (Guess it needed one more clunk in?) They are going to check (and I'll guess need to replace the pump) to get a good fit and it to actually pump. The tech said when fully engaged you should not be able to get your finger tips in between the back of the TC and the bell housing. And when the bolts that hold the trans to the back of the engine are pulled up there should still be 1/8" space between the tc and flexplate/flywheel. Well now I know...

 

[Payitforward]

glory hallelujah it's in and it works!
Complete with the new torque converter, pump, seal and some other needed stuff it finally went in and did what it was supposed to do, "move the Ranger!" It still ran like CRAP but after I determined that 3 of the spark plug wires were wrong and got some good gas it strightened right up. Go figure?

Many thanks to all who gave me tips, tricks and encouragement as I worked on this truck for Max. Who would have known that the Torque Converter has to be in so far that you can just barely get your finger tips in around it? And what a real joy it is to pull it with just your finger tips forward into the holes on the flexplate, very slowly. Glad it is done, hope I don't have to do more work on it anytime soon.

Thanks again from Payitforward and Max.