Just need confirmation...

[Millster]

So I'm reviving my 1986 Ranger XLT. It died on me almost exactly 2 years ago in a parking lot and sat for some time before I finally stumbled upon the information about the infamous TFI. A day spent with a multimeter, $5 American for the special tool, and $9.99 for the TFI later and she was back and running like it had only been a day.

That is until...
Obviously after 2 years of sitting stone dead, I had to replace the battery. I tried a few times using a jumper box to get her started and then running it for a bit to let the alt charge the battery but it wouldn't take. Oh well.

Anyway, I drove the truck around a bit, it's having some problems still with bogging way down after it warms up. You can push the pedal to the floor and it makes this deep muffled rumble but hardly moves. Almost 213,000 miles so I'm thinking the cat's had it. So I drive it to work one day, it does as it usually does except when I went to leave, it wouldn't crank. Just "click". So I try again... "click". Check my batt connections and they were OK, strapped the jumper box on thinking maybe my alt was shot... "click".

So I'll jump ahead and try to keep this short. Ended up burning the end off of my positive cable, replaced that, same symptoms. Replaced the starter relay, burned the battery-end post off of the new one (cheap part) with the same symptoms, finally jumped across the posts of the old relay with a large screwdriver and the starter motor spins. It spins fine, but the drive does not engage. Am I on the right track thinking my starter drive has bit the dust and is just hogging so much current that it overloads the relay? As I say, the motor spins and sounds like it does so at a normal speed, does sound a bit "rattly" but doesn't engage the flywheel and turn the engine. I just want to run this by some of you all here to see if I'm on the right track before I climb under that greasy old monster to pull the starter.

 

[ambivolent]

i had an old ford F100 that did the same thing except for the gear engaging i replaced the relay with an extra one i had and it worked as for the starter not engaging, i have a 72 impala that will occasionally do this and for some reason if i rock it in gear it will start again, it may be some worn teeth on the starter/flywheel or you have a bad solenoid

 

[IMenriched]

yes you're heading down the right path!

1st off, just to clearify, I think what you are calling a relay ("jumped across the posts of the old relay with a large screwdriver") is the starter soleniod. There are relays but significantly smaller (about the size of a ice cube), and very difficult to cross contacts with a screw driver.


ANY who....yes the soleniod could be bad as well as the bendix drive for your starter.

And yes, for sitting for a time it, the bendix drive, cold be just be a bit gummy....you could try to remove inspection cover near the starter and spray some carb or brake cleaner in there and see if it improves....but it would be far wiser to remove the starter and get it tested.

as far as the lack of throttle response....
Do you still have old gas in it??
has the fuel filter been changed??? air filter??
check all your grounds and vacuum lines....sitting for a extended periods time and rodents have a nasty way of eroding anything reasonabily desent.

 

[Millster]

Thanks both, for your replies. I actually know that Ford calls that the solenoid, but by definition, it's simply a relay and more of a current limiting protector than what you would normally think of as a starter solenoid. Meh, just my take on it. But I appreciate the spirit of the clarification.

I'm really leaning toward the bendix drive since as I stated earlier, I replaced the solenoid with another unit which had the same results as before ("click") right up until the post got hot enough to burn off.
And that's when I thought "well, the solenoid is not your traditional starter solenoid so perhaps..." and jumped that baby. Fantastic shower of sparks and motor rotation lead me to believe I was dealing with a sticky bendix but I just thought I'd get some second expert opinions.

I'll take this time to say I've been lurking around these forums for quite some time, reading about ideas for the truck and have found the advice to be great and the people to be friendly... so here I am.

Now as for the loss of power... I've checked grounds (except the strap because it's covered in grease from the leaky rocker cover gaskets) and they're all in good order (low resistance and all conducting), the fuel has been turned over in both tanks twice since I got it running again (the problem also existed before the death of the TFI), checked vacuum lines and they look OK. I had a loose one but repairing it and bump starting the truck didn't show any change. Air filter is new (K&N style cone on the end of the intake tube) but I have NOT replaced the fuel filter yet. The high-pressure pump was replaced about 3 years ago (shortly before I inherited the truck) and they CLAIM the filter was replaced as well. Probably wouldn't hurt to do it again just to be safe. I do have a new set of plugs set to go in once it gets starting again. We'll see if that doesn't make a HUGE difference, but other than that I'm certainly open to suggestions.

 

[holyford86]

check your cable from the relay to the starter along its whole length, there might be some insulation worn through.

 

[AllanD]

Also check the grounds.

Ground wires can stop a starter just as thoroughly as a bad contact on a positive wire, that being said I doubt a bad ground or other connection would allow enough curent flow to burn an end off a positive wire.

That soulds like an internally shorted starter wire.

Now as for it "running like shit" (my words not yours)
look inside the distributor cap for condensation, dead insects, carbon tracks, etc...
Or simply replace it...

Consider the wires as a potential culprit..

And though I don't normally recommend "mechanic in a can"
I will in this case.. get yourself three large bottles of Techron
Fuel injection cleaner, drain the two year old gas out of the tank
or atleast dilute it three to one with fresh gasoline.

I recommend ignoring the instructions on the techron, put a full large bottle
into the drained tank and add no more than five gallons of fresh gasoline into
the tank.

Put a two gallon gas can in the truck, to that gas can before you fill it add
the second bottle of techron. drive until the engine quits and add that can
then drive atleast 20 miles before you fill the tank with fresh gas

then at the gas station add the last bottle before you fill the tank.

This gets EVERY BIT of varnish out of the fuel system

Injectors rarely "go bad", but they do get "varnished up" particularly
if they are allowed to sit...

As for the catylitic converter? unless it's physically blocked it's fine.

AD

 

[BRUTUS_T_HOG]

get another starter, and get a new starter relay and you might want to get new battery cables

 

[Millster]

check your cable from the relay to the starter along its whole length, there might be some insulation worn through.

Haven't done that one yet. That's another one of those "@#*$ that thing is greasy" problems.

And given all of that, I'm going with "I've got something shorted internally on the starter" because I've replaced both batter cables (properly), tried another solenoid with the SAME results and if I try to crank it either with the key or by shorting the terminals on the solenoid, the wires will get hot enough to burn my hand (pos and ground). That, to me, indicates something is sucking a horrific amount of current and needs to be put in its place. If anything wasn't connected, it wouldn't get hot, it just wouldn't work.

Thanks AllanD, for the fuel system advice. I've actually used Techron on a couple of my cars to great effect. After the plugs that was going to be my next step, whether it still ran bad or not. The old gas is out of the system now but the varnish could still remain and that's never conducive to proper operation. I'll also check the cap. The wires are practically new 8mm Motorcrafts and all have been checked anyway. Aside from the one that I didn't pop all the way onto the end of the plug and it would slip off, they're working well. I could definitely tell when that one would come off.

I know the plugs are lean fouled (probably from when the fuel pump gave out) so I'm really leaning toward that as a major contributor to the power loss. It'll be easy enough to check the cat since I'm planning to do some work to the exhaust once I get it started again anyway. Muffler's rusted out and the pipe itself isn't great. So I can "probe" to see if it's plugged. No biggy to replace it if it is.

 

[Millster]

Bringing an old thread to life...

Got the truck running again, though I never reported that fact. It WAS the starter. Which was promptly followed by the new solenoid... which begat new plugs, wires, thermostat... which begat a new fuel pump... which begat a new fuel pump relay... which begat a new fuseable link... which... oh, who the #@%$*& knows what's next. I should note that in all of this work, all wiring was thoroughly inspected, grounds checked and tightened, etc. Haven't overlooked the obvious, to be sure. Even ran it "cat-less" for a short distance just to rule them out and it stuck to the same routine (sounded worse wide open, too).

Anyway, short story is that now it's running well when it's cold. Once it heats up (takes at least a 20 minute drive), that's another matter. It will buck and chug and just throw a total fit until you get it up above about 4K, then it starts to smooth out. But you have to be careful trying to get it there or it will just puke and leave you stranded. Let it sit for 10 minutes or so and it fires right back up. If I let it sit and idle (with the engine warm) it'll start the same stuff. First comes running a little rough, followed by poor throttle response and the smell of rich exhaust (no smoke, though) and then as if it knows it's going to die, the intake starts sucking massive amounts of air and within 20 seconds, it's dead... for 10 minutes.

Headed over to O'Reilly Auto after work to have the TFI tested to see if I've lost another one. If it tests good, I'll probably pull the O2 sensor harness and see if that smooths it out.

And finally... no, no codes. Nothing at all since I cleared them last. Just "System Pass". Any ideas, throw them my way.

 

[Millster]

OK. So the TFI tested fine (no real surprise there). But when I was removing it, I noticed... only one screw. This shouldn't be? I put the thing on there and I KNOW I put them both in. Worse news is that when I put it back on, still with its one screw, the one it has is stripped slightly on the aluminum distributer housing.
Strangely it did not run AS bad on the way home, but it was still not good. O'Reilly has a reman dizzy w/TFI already mounted for $95. I'm thinking of just going that route at this point. Obviously the ignition system is partially to blame. Just need to find the right way to get it fixed.

 

[IMenriched]

OK. So the TFI tested fine (no real surprise there). But when I was removing it, I noticed... only one screw. This shouldn't be? I put the thing on there and I KNOW I put them both in. Worse news is that when I put it back on, still with its one screw, the one it has is stripped slightly on the aluminum distributer housing.
Strangely it did not run AS bad on the way home, but it was still not good. O'Reilly has a reman dizzy w/TFI already mounted for $95. I'm thinking of just going that route at this point. Obviously the ignition system is partially to blame. Just need to find the right way to get it fixed.

yeap I would agree that replacing the whole distrib...prolly is a wise route.

just a another note is to check the MAP sensor and all vacuum lines

 

[Millster]

yeap I would agree that replacing the whole distrib...prolly is a wise route.

just a another note is to check the MAP sensor and all vacuum lines

Thanks, IMenriched! Your insight is, as usual, much appreciated.
MAP sensor is good (back-probed to proper tolerances and no codes, looks fairly new on top of that all).

I've checked every vacuum line I can find and even intentionally introduced leaks on a few that were SLIGHTLY suspect. I've found no problems. In fact, the truck actually seemed to run a TINY bit better with the line from the evap canister removed since it leaned things out. That tells me I'm definitely running too rich for the spark I'm producing.

Here's where things get interesting, though. O'Reilly flat refuses to sell me another TFI until they can prove the old one is bad. They know I bought the one in there now from them and they recently changed their store-brand part from a 1 yr to a "limited lifetime" warranty. I'm taking this as some admission of faulty parts but the refusal to sell me another one confuses me. Seems out of the scope of their rights. In any case, NAPA is more than happy to sell me a new TFI, only has a 1 year warranty on their cheapest one, believes O'Reilly is full of it when it comes to the lifetime warranty on a cheap part and is actually willing to help me try to find the screws that hold the TFI in place since one of mine has gone absent. O'Reilly said I'm "screwed" as far as the screws because they're "some special Ford something and we have nothing that can possibly replace that". Uh huh...

So anyway, I'm willing to throw the money at the truck to say it's most likely the TFI. The problem ONLY occurs when the distributor housing is too hot to touch and once it's cooled to the point you can handle it, the truck runs just like it should. If I'm wrong and I still have problems after I replace my TFI, I'll let you all know and you can point and laugh but I've been around the block with this thing a time or two and if it looks like a TFI... well, you know the rest.

 

[Millster]

Crap, crap and... more crap.

Well, to misquote myself if it looks like a TFI... it's probably not the TFI.
Replaced it since one of my screws had gone missing and I was pretty sure damage had been done through that. The guy at NAPA went through Hell to find me a couple of screws that would work but he certainly did. Even sold me the TFI at the price the other shop had theirs at because it was "a superior part" then proceeded to throw a 3mm hex bit in for free to fit the new screws since they didn't have anything with a 5mm head that would fit in the module and still allow me to fit the "TFI socket". Overall, glad I went to NAPA and shunned O'Reilly. Bad news is that while it made the truck run BETTER, it did not, by any means, fix it. My symptoms are still there.

So, codes... still none but that gets weird.

And here's where it gets weird. I thought maybe it could be the O2 sensor. Decided to disconnect the sensor and see what that made happen. Ummm... yeah, if I had a wiring connector left that might have worked but it has been laying against the exhaust manifold and there is NOTHING left of it. One would tend to think that would throw a code but again... nothing. For now, I just have it tied up where it can't short further until I can figure out what to do with it. NAPA has the harness end of the connector for $13 but as far as a new sensor the shops around here only carry Bosch and I'm really leery of them. Anyone have anything to say to the contrary? Obviously I need a new one since there is no plug left to plug the new harness end into. If a Bosch is my only option and I'm not going to be sad for having done it, then I'll do it.

Now, here's the fun part. I got stuck in the WalMart parking lot tonight. A whole lot of cranking but no start. Listened under the truck and could hear my brand new fuel pump cranking and sounding like an ill donkey (not a good sign) so I knew I had fuel. Long story short, the TFI harness had somehow popped off the new module. But upon firing the truck up, the new high pressure pump continued to bray like a wounded mule and once I got backed out, if I touched the gas, it would try to die on me. I finally resigned to slipping the clutch and trying to just ease it back into the spot. All of a sudden, it revved to about 4 grand and that was that. I was off to the races.

Got it home and became aware of a new sound. Something almost moaning from right around the front filler door. Are the in-tank pumps normally that noisy or does it sound like I have one going out? The high-pressure continues to sound like a dying donkey so I'm positive it's going to be a warranty job. I'm going to get ahold of one of my friends who has a shop and see if he has a fuel pressure gauge so I can get some idea of whether or not I have pressure problems. This could obviously be my whole issue if I'm just dealing with a dispeptic fuel pump.

Anyway, that's my story. If anyone is still with me, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

 

[2.9XLT]

There's two things I would check before ruling on a bad fuel pump. One is the fuel filter, has it been changed recently? And the other is check your charging voltage. I had a fuel pump that sounded like a dying cow, and it was because my voltage regulator was shot and charging at 18 volts.

 

[Millster]

Thanks XLT. Voltage is one thing I had not thought of. I checked it this morning and my batt is at 13.1vdc, jumps to ~14.5vdc with the truck running and stays stable through throttle advance.

Fuel filter wise, I'm afraid that MIGHT be a part of the problem. When I was sold the new fuel pump, I was told I had to buy a new filter in order to enable the warranty on the pump. Cool. Well, they handed me the upstream filter. I told them "but this thing has two". Their computer told them that under normal circumstances, that reservoir strainer should never need service. Well, I think my truck falls far from normal circumstances... 213,000 miles and then sitting for two years with fuel in that reservoir... I'm inclined to believe it needs replaced.

In any case, I have a friend with a fuel-pressure gauge who is going to help me test THAT and we'll see if that's where things are going wrong. Obviously, the O2 sensor will be getting replaced as well since that can't be helping matters but I'm not convinced it is the primary issue since as I've stated before, no codes.

It did die on me this morning in the middle of traffic, but I was lucky enough to dodge out of the stream of cars and into a parking lot where it strangely fired RIGHT back up and then just had to be nursed back to being able to run with throttle and no bogging. I pulled it back out into the street and it ran fine the rest of the way to work. So I'm thinking bad strainer in the reservoir = heavy load on the LP fuel pumps which is making THEM noisy and has caused starvation on the HP pump, heading it toward an untimely death. Seems odd that this would be temperature dependent but then nothing with this truck has been "normal" so...