Idling vs start and stop.

[91stranger]

So based on the ford math from adsm idling for 2 minutes is like driving 1 mile. That's a pretty simple equation to use for people who just like knowing or when you want to sound like a smartass to your friend when they refuse to leave a car running to run inside the gas station.

 

[19Walt93]

The thought behind start/stop is to save gas and it might do that-at a cost. The MPG engineers aren't concerned with the replacement cost of a starter or battery, just the MPG rating. When the 2.7 ecoboost first came out in F150's we looked up the battery and starter and the battery was $200+. Shutting it off rather than idling for a minute or less is foolish.The engineers also aren't concerned about engine wear, nor is Ford if the engine lasts beyond 60k and out of warranty, that's where the silly "intelligent oil life monitor" system and 10,000 mile service intervals came from. In 42 years at the dealer I never saw an engine failure on a vehicle that I knew had been serviced at 3000-5000 miles but I saw many failures on engines which were full of sludge.

 

[sgtsandman]

The thought behind start/stop is to save gas and it might do that-at a cost. The MPG engineers aren't concerned with the replacement cost of a starter or battery, just the MPG rating. When the 2.7 ecoboost first came out in F150's we looked up the battery and starter and the battery was $200+. Shutting it off rather than idling for a minute or less is foolish.The engineers also aren't concerned about engine wear, nor is Ford if the engine lasts beyond 60k and out of warranty, that's where the silly "intelligent oil life monitor" system and 10,000 mile service intervals came from. In 42 years at the dealer I never saw an engine failure on a vehicle that I knew had been serviced at 3000-5000 miles but I saw many failures on engines which were full of sludge.

While this is a politically loaded comment, the intent is not to start a debate or a controversy. It just the only way I know how to express the concept and implications of the topic being addressed here.

Thank the tree huggers and hypermilers for ideas like this and for pushing them. The vehicle manufacturers and engineers are just trying to meet the requirements, current and upcoming, so they can stay in business and keep selling vehicles. Think about some of the statements come politicians have made about the New Green Deal and their lack of concern about how much it's going to cost or what damage it would do to the citizens and economy. Same thinking applies and probably from the same people.

Does start-stop save fuel? Sure does, and from what I'm told, by a noticeable amount. How much wear and tear to the vehicle is it going to cause and at what cost? We'll need to talk to people in Europe on this one. They have had the system in their cars longer. My guess is that the fuel savings won't pay for the increased maintenance costs.

 

[adsm08]

My guess is that the fuel savings won't pay for the increased maintenance costs.

I am thinking that this right here is spot on. Extra wear on starters and batteries in particular is going to be huge. And with China buying lead like its going to be the next gold battery prices are not going down any time soon.

My advice to anyone who has a stop/start vehicle would be disable the system if possible, and buy an AGM battery if it didn't come with one.

 

[Dirtman]

What do you do in those start/stop things when its -10 outside and need to keep your heat running so you don't die ? My sisters car has it but she lives in Georgia so i never even thought of that... I guess the same question goes for running the AC when its 110 in Georgia...

 

[adsm08]

What do you do in those start/stop things when its -10 outside and need to keep your heat running so you don't die ? My sisters car has it but she lives in Georgia so i never even thought of that... I guess the same question goes for running the AC when its 110 in Georgia...

A lot of overrides are built in. The Fords have a button to kill it for 1 key cycle, and most won't shut down with the AC running. Not sure about heat.

 

[8thTon]

Most of us have dealt with cars that are not new anymore, and the myriad of little things that go wrong electrical, starting, charging, fuel and ignition systems. Picture one of these in 15 years. Still the manufacturers are not too concerned about that as they won't have any responsibility for them by then.

Besides, they see that making a "selling" cars is not likely to be a profitable venture for much longer, so they'd rather sell transportation services by operating fleets of self driving cars. That way they get to bill you monthly forever, which is the Holy Grail every company is after. Hell, they lease most vehicles now so they'll be getting them back anyway.

 

[19Walt93]

When Obama's 52 mpg mandate was announced Ford figured they could do it by 2025 as required--but--it would add $9000 to the price of every car for electronics, exotic lightweight materials, and engineering. I think the CAFE target before that was 32-34 mpg. 15,000 miles/year at 33 mpg = 454.5 gallons. 15k miles at 52 mpg = 288.5 gallons. 454.5-288.5=166 gallons saved per year. IF gas went up to $4 again, that would mean $664 a year in savings. You'd break even in a little over 13 1/2 years. They can build cars to do anything we want but we'll pay for it. Stop/start may save fuel and the costs won't show up in fuel expense.

 

[1990RangerinSK]

I am thinking that this right here is spot on. Extra wear on starters and batteries in particular is going to be huge. And with China buying lead like its going to be the next gold battery prices are not going down any time soon.

My advice to anyone who has a stop/start vehicle would be disable the system if possible, and buy an AGM battery if it didn't come with one.

How much wear, though, does idling cause? When I lived in the city, I frequently had to wait five minutes or more for a train. I'd put the car in park, and shut off the engine. I also shut off the engine while I'm waiting for somebody that I'm picking up.

Ok, let me put this to you: If I'm making deliveries, and stopping for two minutes at a time, multiple times per day, how much wear does it cause to my engine if I'm leaving it running while I run into the business for a few minutes? I guess the answer is that for each minute I idle my engine, it's equivalent to driving two miles, is that what I read earlier in this thread? Would it be significant enough to lead to replacement of an engine sooner, rather than later? For the sake of argument, let's say that it does.

So, over the 150,000 mile life of my truck, if I'm constantly starting the engine, maybe I'll replace the starter twice, and the battery twice. Cost of battery replacement would be about $150.00, starter about $500. So you're around $1,500.00. Last time I got a quote for engine replacement, it was in the neighbourhood of $3,000.00, and that wasn't for a new engine. I think I'd rather shut off my engine, and start it up again when I return.

 

[8thTon]

Starting your engine is not without wear either though. Cranking without oil pressure causes internal wear, especially on the thrust bearing if it's a manual and you have to press the clutch in. I don't know if anyone has any reliable figures to quantify that though.

 

[1990RangerinSK]

Starting your engine is not without wear either though. Cranking without oil pressure causes internal wear, especially on the thrust bearing if it's a manual and you have to press the clutch in. I don't know if anyone has any reliable figures to quantify that though.

Yes, that would be true. I have had vehicles in the past that, when they're first started, clatter for a second or two until the oil gets up to the valve train.

 

[91stranger]

I think everyone just needs to use their own best judgment. Engines are designed to be started cold. If cold starts were that big of an issue then everyone would have to be replacing their engines because almost everyone starts their vehicles cold.

 

[sgtsandman]

I think everyone just needs to use their own best judgment. Engines are designed to be started cold. If cold starts were that big of an issue then everyone would have to be replacing their engines because almost everyone starts their vehicles cold.

No disagreement there. Some oil film is left unless the engine has sat a really long time. There is more of a concern with wear and tear on the battery and starter system with a start-stop system than anything. Plus, it's yet another computer controlled item to break.

 

[Curious Hound]

$500 for a starter?!?!?

You need to start shopping at Rock Auto.

 

[decipha]

start up clatter is due to using the incorrect oil filter

USE ONLY MOTORCRAFT FILTERS and you won't have that problem

reason being is cuz the motorcraft filters have anti-siphon anti-drain back valves so they do not bleed oil all the way down on shut off.

This is a very common problem on marauders, mach1's with the 4v aluminum engines that have plastic tensioners as well as the 3v 4.6/5.4 engines that are notorious for eating cam phasers. The tensioners and cam phasers fail due to not using the correct motorcraft oil filter and thus causing low oil pressure on startup.