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hydrolocked?


Brian1973

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
129
City
Cincinnati, OH
Vehicle Year
1991
Transmission
Manual
Couple questions for those with more knowledge than me. I have a 1991 Ranger 3.0L... seems I blew headgasket at 145k miles.... was missing a bit during heavy acceleration before it blew but when it did blow, it started blowing white smoke and sputtering... immediately shut 'er down.... noticed liquid dripping from rear of engine.... took to shop, they said hydrolocked possibly and might just be better to get a good used engine.... their price didn't excite me. part of the reasoning for an engine swap was they figured it was an older engine and some of the bolts on the exhaust manifold looked pretty rusty they said too..... figured they could replace gasket and put together but the bottom end might need work too..... kinda got the idea they didn't wanna have to mess with it.... especially with a price of $2500 to install a motor with 80k miles on it.... figured I'd work on it when I had more time.... soooo, I have the time and have worked on it.... I have removed the heads and from what I can tell all looks ok... gasket didn't have any real noticable blowout that I can tell.... the pistons look fine from what I can tell above... the cylinders feel smooth and no noticable imperfections.... and luckily all but one exhaust manifold bolts came out clean.....

Question 1) Is there any EASY way to see if there is any damage to connecting rods or other parts from a possible hydrolock? Without taking apart the whole bottom side?.... also, should mention... before tearing apart engine, did drain antifreeze and ran engine for a couple minutes... other than the apparent compression loss on one or two cylinders, it did run and seemed fine under the condition...

Question 2) since I have things tore down this far, any suggestions for other things I can do that might need doing in the near future for an engine with 145k miles.... timing chain (even though it seems I don't have to tear apart the engine to get to the cover as I have had to do in the past for a Toyota I own also)... I figure I'll get a valve job and have machine shop machine the heads and then start reassembling if no other issues to resolve.... would hate to put all together though and then find I have a shimmy or other problem.... :annoyed: ???

Thanks,
Brian
 
check the heads for warpage first and have them magnafluxed to check for cracks then you can lap the valves and put new guide seals in the motor is not that old and the block is probably ok as long as you didnt get water in the oil and circulate it in the bearings. drain the oil and look for water If the engine has been sitting with water in the bearings it mean trouble. As far as I know a hydrolock is when a cylinder fills with water and the engine wont turn over. You shut it down quick I guess you can check that all the pistons reach all the way to the top of the cylinders there is now way to check the connecting rods without pulling the pistons. If it was me and you feel confident no damage was done to the crank and pistons put it back together with rebuild heads and run it till it pukes its a Ford.
 
Can you put pictures up so we can see all the valves and the head gaskets? Usually the "blow" is where the coolant passage is closest to the cylinder.. A close examination of those areas may turn up a burnt place. Also the tops of the pistons can tell a story.
I would advise leaving the valves alone! All a "valve job" does is wear the valves even more than they already are. The valve seals...now that is another story. I do those every time I get a head off.
It is VERY doubtful that you actually hydrolocked your engine. That is extreemly hard to do from a gasket leak.
Head gaskets don't just blow all by them selves.. not often anyway.. most times there is a small external coolant leak that has went unnoticed for a few days/weeks and the coolant gets so low that the heads overheat and BURN the headgasket.
Big JIm
 
One other thing.. WARPAGE.. Do you for one minute think there is a single head in the entire country of Mexico that has ever been checked for "warpage"? We are the only country in the world that even THINKS about heads being warped. Much less has the machines to take the "warp" out of a head.
That's why there is a specific PATTERN for tightning the head bolts! That pattern takes any "warp" out of the head and assures it is tight to the block all over. Checking for warp is just another way to needlessly spend your money.
Big JIm
 
So all these years everyone was wrong I personally would rather make sure it is flat before I torque it down why chance cracking the head forceing it to go flat from my experience cast metal dont bend very well or let someone BS me in doing so. That is actually the first time I have heard someone say that and all it takes is a good strait edge to check it. Besides I dont think your bending the head but rather the gasket wont be set evenly and your stuck with the same or similar problem blowing out another gasket.
 
So all these years everyone was wrong I personally would rather make sure it is flat before I torque it down why chance cracking the head forceing it to go flat from my experience cast metal dont bend very well or let someone BS me in doing so. That is actually the first time I have heard someone say that and all it takes is a good strait edge to check it. Besides I dont think your bending the head but rather the gasket wont be set evenly and your stuck with the same or similar problem blowing out another gasket.

It is fear of the unknown that causes Americans to go the whole route. Think again about Mexico! Most of the countries around the world do every engine repair on the cheap! If there is a burnt valve, that valve is ground or replaced and HAND-LAPPED in place and the head is installed.. There is no machinery required. Machine shops are few and far between.

One time while visiting in Colima, Mexico, I ran over a log in the road.. Busted a hole in my pan. It was a 63 Oldsmobile. We got it to the local mechanic. He pulled the pan off of it, beat it out to fairly normal looking, and heat welded a patch on the outside of the pan.
Then he picked up a sheet of gasket material and hand formed a gasket. And reinstalled the pan...then away we went.
Oh I forgot to say when the pan came off there was a silver dollar sized piece of piston skirt in there... I still have it as a momento.

Sure it is possible to spend all kinds of money on an engine repair.. But most of it is unneeded. If that warped head was working before it got took off then it will go back to work when properly torqued back in place.

A good check would be to place the warped head on a bare block and use a feeler gauge to check the warpage.. Then start torqueing and feeling at the same time...just to see how much and when the warp comes out of the head..
I never have done this but I soon will, I betcha.
Big JIm:hottubfun::wub:
 
Thanks! No water in the oil that I could tell.... took oil and fluids out 4 months after it sat. Pistons seem to come to the top of cylinder so I figured it probably is ok. Shop says they will check for cracked heads. I always would check a head for squareness though before putting it back on. No use in spending all that time putting back together if there is a slight imperfection and you speed your way through blowing another gasket.... IMO... it's small money when you consider the time you invest in the vehicle taking it apart and putting back together..... whether it's being too detailed or not, cars in Mexico probably aren't running as long as ours are with our better repairs.... and I plan on having the valves serviced.... some carbon deposits and to me, it's not gonna wear the valves THAT much but in the end, make the valves have a better fit which thus can help compression? plus they will clean the heads thoroughly so I can cancel out those issues if something else shows up when I start it up :-) but I degress before we get into an opinion war... lol

Thanks for your help, sorry, no pics and camera is currently broke.... gaskets look descent though and no definite sign of a break between a coolant passage and the cylinder soooooo, beats me how the coolant was getting in there but the shop confirmed there was coolant in the cylinder.... possibly some slight warpage from 20 yrs of use....

Would replacing the timing chain and sprockets be a worthwile thing to do while engine is tore down?
 
One other thing.. WARPAGE.. Do you for one minute think there is a single head in the entire country of Mexico that has ever been checked for "warpage"? We are the only country in the world that even THINKS about heads being warped. Much less has the machines to take the "warp" out of a head.
That's why there is a specific PATTERN for tightning the head bolts! That pattern takes any "warp" out of the head and assures it is tight to the block all over. Checking for warp is just another way to needlessly spend your money.
Big JIm

everytime the cyl heads are pulled they need to be checked for warp, AND the block mating surface needs to be checked.

i fully disagree. there is a spec. from each and every manufacturer about how much warpage is acceptable. on aluminum heads its .004", cast heads its up to .008"

we just got a head pulled off with .012" warp, which is 3 times more than the max. the maximum that can be shaved off the head is .010" so its junk. the head gasket was leaking enormously... air being blown out the radiator under high pressure.

warped mating surfaces do not clamp down on the head gasket evenly, and you simply cannot just torque it down because it puts a lot of stress on the head when it warms up and wants to expand. it will crack.

to the OP, get the heads checked while they are off if you don't own a straight edge and feeler gauges, if you are SURE the head gasket was not blown your intake gaskets could have been leaking, but you already have the intake off
 
How tight were the intake manifold bolts it could have been there it was leaking yea I would change all the gaskets you can while you have it apart and a timing chain and gears never hurt either while your there. just take your time torquing everything down slow and even use the torque patterns in your repair manual and get a manual if you dont have one. Most bone yards have them cheap if you can find one for your truck. Asking questions never hurts either let us know how it`s going
 
A new water pump would be in order with the work your doing and anything else you have doubts about and require major surgery to replace
 
Mr. Hog

everytime the cyl heads are pulled they need to be checked for warp, AND the block mating surface needs to be checked.

i fully disagree. there is a spec. from each and every manufacturer about how much warpage is acceptable. on aluminum heads its .004", cast heads its up to .008"

we just got a head pulled off with .012" warp, which is 3 times more than the max. the maximum that can be shaved off the head is .010" so its junk. the head gasket was leaking enormously... air being blown out the radiator under high pressure.

warped mating surfaces do not clamp down on the head gasket evenly, and you simply cannot just torque it down because it puts a lot of stress on the head when it warms up and wants to expand. it will crack.

to the OP, get the heads checked while they are off if you don't own a straight edge and feeler gauges, if you are SURE the head gasket was not blown your intake gaskets could have been leaking, but you already have the intake off

I think we all need reminding about CUBA! Since the revolution there have been almost no new cars there. The streets are full of pre 1961 cars.. 57 chevies abound.. All the cars are still running! They have no access to new AMERICAN parts for these vehicles.
Also all the machine shops are operating with any machines they had in 1960.
If they get a bad valve or a warped head they have NO CHOICE but to put it back together as quickly and as cheap as they can.
Trust me, we spend entirely too much money thinking our heads are in need of this or that.
The only heads I've ever had milled were for BUILT engines that I started from scratch. Used engines with used heads get the Cuba treatment and they last as good as ones that have had hundreds of extra dollars spent on them.
Big JIm:hottubfun::wub:
 
Brian- As usual, people are treating this as a "my way is the best and the rest are idiots" topic. Everything that follows is regarding iron block and iron head combos- aluminum heads and/or blocks require a lot more attention to detail. Now, if the engine did not overheat before you shut it down, the heads might be OK, but that gasket went for a reason. I run my engines 200-250+k miles before I get tired of them and sell them, never had a head gasket failure unless there was something wrong in the first place. The head castings today are a lot a lot thinner than they used to be. Jim is correct on what he could get away with on the older cars but the newer ones are not as forgiving. Todays engines have thinner castings, run at higher temps, have a tendency to ping, running lean fuel ratios, all are tougher on the heads and head gaskets. Here is my 2 cents for what it is worth- You already have a decent amount of time invested. Would be a shame to have to tear it apart again because you wanted to save a few bucks. Get the heads checked for warps and a close inspection for cracks, including inside the valve pockets. If the valves do not look burnt, leave them alone. Sounds like it was running well before, so the valves are probably OK. This would be a good time to do a bit of cleanup for carbon and rough castings in the combustion chamber, these engines are notorious for rough spots that lead to pre-ignition, a potential cause of head gasket failure. If the water pump is the original, I would replace it while you have the chance, it probably will go in the next year or so anyway. As far as the timing chain, if you can pop the cover easy while the water pump is off, do it and check the chain, then you can decide on changing it. NOTE- someplace in one of the forums I read that rebuilt heads can be bought for about $200 each. Not sure if my memory is 100% accurate, but that is an alternative to check out. Compare that to whatever machine shop charges you may ring up. Good Luck
 
Thanks ALL.. I believe the CarQuest/machine shop will perform some type of leakdown/cracked head test... as well as machine heads if warped... with a straightedge the block seemed ok but I wouldn't say my straightedge was too technical so I'll check with the shop when I pick up the heads on something a little more scientific?..... and I would guess they probably tell me how much warpage if any (i hope) was on the head.... They've done this before for me with another vehicle so it's not totally a new experience... although a little different with a 4 cylinder with one head ;-). The few times I did that was due to a timing chain (tensioner wasn't working right causing rattling and then a snap another time) in a Toyota truck that required head removal for access.... just to quell anyone that thinks I'm blowing head gaskets left and right! lol

Valves may not need much but told them to take care of it if needs it.... of course, if it's a slow day at the shop, it may need it! lol I don't think it can be bad since it's never been done.... agree with ya oldfordman on older vehicles are a little hardier I'd bet to work with the "no machining needed" method Jim may be talking about. As I said, I'm doing it so that's that.

Agree with ya Kim that the water pump would be a good idea.... but actually did that the year before when it was weeping so that's in good shape.... think the manual says I can take the timing cover off with the water pump still connected so may look further into that and the checking of the chain that oldfordman mentioned... I just wonder how often these chains need work? Since it is fairly easily accessed without the other parts I have off now.... do they typically need attention before 200k miles?

And yes, thought about the rebuilt heads if there is a problem with the currents ones.... I'd imagine if there is warpage beyond the limit, that's the route I will go on the bad head. The idea about a leak with the intake sounds interesting and I'll recheck the gaskets and look a little closer since the head gaskets didn't look blown out at any particular spot..... I'll take them into the machine shop and see what they think if I find no conclusive evidence.... maybe there is a crack in the head allowing seepage and I'll get word in the next few days....

Certainly appreciate the help.... and reading my lengthy post.
Brian
 
Another thought- Look at the tops of the pistons and the cumbustion chambers. The way it was blowing white smoke, you were getting coolant into the combustion chambers, and the cylinders that had liquid going into them will be noticeably cleaner, and have much less carbon. I have seen v-8 enines that had 6 cylinders all carboned up, and 2 cylinders looked brand new. Might help you to narrow down where the leak was.
 
sighhhh

ok, back again... engine is back together.... things look good, no left over bolts! lol

One question I did have (and probably should have double checked before all together) is about collapsed tappet gap adjustment... I don't currently have a leak down tool but from the reading in the manual, it says this (ctga) is only a concern if a "considerable" amount was ground on the valves. I figured since there was a valve job and valves didn't look all that bad to begin with and they never were ground before, it probably was still within the allowances???

Ok, so back to starting this thing.... hang in with me here, I'll try to be thorough.... being that this is the first time for this vehicle but about the 3rd or 4th time I have reassembled an engine from the head up (tho that was carb before), timing is always one of those things done last that isn't hard but putting the distributor in correctly can be a little hairy. I mark on the engine but after putting greasy fingers back there and whatever else, the mark usually disappears. I have the cap marked good and know pretty much how the distributor was in there based on where the cap screws were.... fairly parallel with the hood line... (although the manual shows it to be diagonal more... grr)....

So I go to start it up and takes a couple starts... fuel builds... put-put-put clunk... ok, so that's scary kinda but I've had this happen before, clunk can just mean the timing isn't quite in the right spot... I move the distributor a few times trying one direction then the other.... couple times it wants to start and fires just slightly then clunk..... finally I pull the distributor and move it one spline towards the direction I figure is more likely.... try again.... spin spin spin.... clunk stop!... ok....so now I'm getting a little worried.... unhook battery, turn engine by hand (socket & break bar).... only goes so far... ok, so figure liquid in cylinders/flooded and hope that it's not coolant as this problem started out as.... pull plugs, cylinders 3 and 6 (back of engine) blow out gas.... pull distributor cap and let engine spin.... everything sounds mechanically fine.....:icon_thumby: seemed like pretty good amount of gas in cylinders though.... :dunno: reassemble and still not making progress... plus battery starts to drain... grrrr.... hook to another truck batt.... try again... seems more fuel in cylinders stopping my motion.... drain only 3 and 6 again... am I on the right track here or am I missing something.... that darn #3 plug is a pain.... gotta get to it under the truck... grrr

Soooo, I double checked spark wires... all good there... thought maybe I plugged wrong vacuum hose to fuel pressure regulator on fuel rail... nope, that looks right.... took some pics before I removed stuff so know I'm back to the way it was there.... I'm about 90% sure I have the distributor in the right spot now (don't have a real good pic of the placement... grr)... guess can try going one more spline in the direction I went or one over opposite from where I started.... I just hate hearing the clunk....

have I missed anything here? almost seems like after 2 turns of the key that I'm getting cylinder lock up.... oh, and I'm assuming that if I left it during the day for a bit that I probably am gonna need to change oil since I would imagine it would leak down past rings.... uhg.... no biggie though, figured I'd change it fairly quickly anyhow.... but still, just wanna get it fired up and make sure I've made it that far and getting discouraged... does seem to do fine with not draining the other cylinders... does that point to something? hmmmm...

ok, look forward to help... you guys are a shade tree mechanic's best friend :D
 

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