Horsepower Torque or Traction

[dgarner08]

I have a 1985 ranger two wheel drive short bed with a 2.0. I want to put a v8 in it but i want to know what is the most important factor when it comes to moving a ranger down the track/road with a v8.... Horsepower Torque or Traction or what combination of the three

Educate me please

 

[1988broncoll]

Traction is always the most important factor in anything. if you think about it why have a motor that can put of 500 hp but once you get 300 to the wheels they break loose then thats a waist of 200 hp. IMO id say traction horsepower then torque for a pickup because there light in the ass end so its harder to get them to hook with a high amount of torque and horsepower

 

[Sunk]

HP and torque are worthless without traction, so take care of that first. Then torque. Torque is what moves the truck, HP is just how fast.

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

wrong. torque is a static force. horsepower is a measure of work done. when estimating 1/4 mile times, you use vehicle weight and horsepower, not vehicle weight and torque.

but traction, particularly in a pickup, should be your primary consideration....especially if this vehicle will see the street on a regular basis. hooking up in a straight line on a sticky race track is one thing. hooking up while turning/manuvering in traffic on worn and uneven roads covered with oil and grease is another.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

They all work togther.

HP doesnt come into play untill the engine gets wound up. Torque gets it rolling.

High HP and low torque Doesnt result in a very fast 1/4 mi acclerator. Low HP and high torque make for a lugger (workhorse) in a street truck you want a balance of the two.

HP is worthless without torque, and torque is what kills traction.

Just for comparision....

Take a 92-96 F150, lets make it a 4wd regcab/long box.

The 302 made 205HP and 275FTLBS

The 300 6 made 145HP and 265ftlbs

Just by looking at the numbers and if you were ignorant to what torque is you would figure the 302 powered truck would be best for everything....WRONG.

0-30MPH....They'll be pretty close (This is where torque makes its presence known)

30-60MPH ....The 302 will start to edge ahead as the 300's HP disadvatage becomes apparent, but the 300 still manages to hang on by a thread.

60-100MPH....No contest. Torque is almost completly out of the equation and HP has begun to doiminate. The 300 gets snuffed out.

Maybe a bad example, but just trying to give you the jist of what the difference is. HP by defination is basically how fast an engine can do work. Torque is how much force the engine can actually exert (twist) to get (the trans, driveshaft, diff, axleshafts, and finally wheels) moving. HP is how fast the engine can whind up, If the engine has small amounts of torque then the whole vehiclewill feel like a turd, because the engine will whind up to make HP, but slower then if it had torque.

Hope that makes sense?

later,
Dustin

 

[Gotta_gofast]

Torque is the amount of rotational force your engine exerts on its crankshaft. Horsepower is the work being performed by your engine in a given time. This is Traction is how well the vehicle can put torque to the ground. Lets get into a more detailed picture of each...

Torque: Basically a force rotating an object on an axis. (twisting) Think of a bycicle. You pedal a bycicle with your feet. As your feet push down on the pedal, you move a lever that turns a shaft. Your foot is the force, the object is the pedal assembly, and the axis is the shaft that holds the pedals and sprockets to the frame of the bike. You can measure torque lb-ft. One pound foot is equivalent to one pound of pressure exerted on a 1 foot lever from the central axis. If you have a 6" lever, you will need two pounds of force to equate to 1 lb-ft. Likewise, it takes only 8 ounces (1/2 pound) exerted over a 2 foot long lever to create 1 lb-ft. In order to increase torque, you must lengthen the lever or add more pressure to the existing lever.

Horsepower:Is a measure of work being performed over a period of one minute. James Watts came up with this formula. 33,000 foot pounds (of torque) per minute equals 1 horsepower. A very easy equasion is this: Horsepower = torque x rpm / 5252.

Traction:This is the tire's ability to "grip" the pavement. As torque is increased (either higher torque output from the engine or from multiplying the current torque) the ability of the tire to "hold on to the surface" decreases. Torque is limited to the amount of traction that you get. An easy example would be winter road conditions. Your engine cannot apply maximum torque because the tires will spin. If you engage 4 wheel drive, then you split the available torque between 4 tires instead of two. Now, you can theoretically apply double the engines torque to the wheels because each tire is recieving the same amount of maximum torque before wheel spin. So, if we take this theory to the dragstrip, you see how traction helps. Without traction, you cannot utilize the maximum available torque during launch.

Now, lets apply these three units into an easy to understand example. Lets use a bycicle. Your feet are the pistons, the pedals are the crankshaft, and the sprockets are the gears in your transmission. First off, how much torque is our engine making at the crankshaft? Well, I weigh 200 pounds. The pedal has a length of 6 inches. So, if I apply maximum pressure to my feet (cylinder pressure exerted on piston during power stroke) by standing on the pedal and the pedal (our crankshaft) is 6 inches long, then I would be creating 100lb-ft. Make sense? Now, say my drive sprocket is 15 teeth and the driven sprocket is 30 teeth. This equates to a 2:1 gear reduction. Now, I'm applying 200lb-ft but only turning the shaft half as fast.

How much horsepower is my bycicle making? Interesting... I know I'm creating 100lb-ft. I need to know how often I create 100lb-ft during one minute. Since I'm standing on the pedals, lets say I make one revolution every 2 seconds. This means, I'm spinning at 30rpm (revolution per minute). Lets get out that handy dandy formula mentioned earlier and start plugging some numbers. hp=tq*rpm/5252. hp=100*30/5252. This comes out to about 0.57hp. (whew, my legs are tired and thats all I could do!?)

Now, lets say I decide to venture out with my bycicle in the winter. I'm approaching a hill and need to apply maximum torque to get up it. But WAIT!!! there's ice. Normally, I was able to stand on my petals and make maximum torque to get up this hill without any problems with the back tire spinning. But this time, my rear tire cannot hold. I apply half of my body weight to the pedals (only creating 50lb-ft) and the tire spins. This means, I can only make 50lb-ft and no more.

The reason people say torque is what gets a car going and hp keeps it going is because of this...

Back to the bycicle example. I was making 100lb-ft of torque. Pretty good for a machine that weighs 250lbs. But, I could only create it 30 times in one minute. So, I start from a dead stop and push on the pedals to get it moving. My drive sprocket is 15 and my driven sprocket is 30. This means I have a 2:1 torque multiplication. Here we go... Starting to go pretty fast, but then I approach 30rpm and I'm going 10 miles an hour. Damn, I need to trade up some of that torque for some speed. I shift into a higher gear. Lets say this gear is a 1:1 drive. I can now go 20mph at 30rpm but I'm only exerting half the torque on the rear wheel as I was in 1st gear. So, I may not accelerate as fast but I'm going a hell of a lot faster than in first. This is torque.

Maybe I drink a redbull (those things claim to give ya superpowers). I can now turn the pedals twice as fast!?. So, I don't need to shift until I hit 60rpm!!! I'm still creating 100lb-ft of torque but at an unbelievable rate of 60 times per minute. I can now accelerate hard in first gear but I don't have to shift at 30rpm. I can now go 20mph in first gear where as I needed to shift into second to do so before. This is horsepower taking over.

Now you hopefully understand the basics of the big three. You can clearly see how each relate to one another. You only need enough traction to hold your vehicle's maximum torque. Anything more and you're wasting money. Anything less and you compromise available torque. Horsepower relies on torque and time. And torque relies on traction. Damn, not to bad for an "off the top o' the head" explanation. If you would like, I can go into more detail on how this works specifially. Such as gearing and power curves and such.

 

[Mac]

I think I've got to stop down and see just what's in that Red Bull you are drinking! And maybe see that Cobra powered machine while I'm at it.
Dave

 

[Gotta_gofast]

lol, well I'm kinda stuck right now with the V8 ranger. I tore the drivetrain out in favor of a 331ci build last november and then late december found myself layed off. So, although I really would like to have the beast up and running by summer I don't know if that will happen. Kinda sucks. I miss it. 302 and rear end came from a 93 cobra mustang (wrecked) and the AOD came from a 89 mustang. Rebuilt the 302 and shortened the rear end from the cobra. Installed Lentech components in the AOD. Was a fun machine. But you have a 427R mustang in your sig... that would be more fun than my truck! lol

 

[LearjetMinako]

I think we fogot about the orginal question. Traction is important for control. Power (HP & Torque) is required to acclerate and go fast. How fast depends on how deep your pockets are. If you drop the V-8 in a Ranger, it would have some traction issues with a heavy foot driver. Softening or adding weight to the rear could help.

HP & Torque mean squat without knowing where those numbers are coming from. Dynometer, it tells all. Torque gets it moving, HP is the result of torque @ RPM (more is usually faster). So who cares if my 2.3 only makes 112HP @ 4800 and 135ft-lbs @ 2400. Torque curve is flat after 2400 and it keeps on trucking.

 

[Gotta_gofast]

Ya, sorry bout the off-topic convo. To be honest, my V8 swap hooked up really well. But, the whole system weighs maybe 150lbs more than the 4 cylinder/5speed it replaced.

 

[dgarner08]

now i know how you got ur name Gotta_gofast.....that is a lot of information... thanks guys any body got any tips how to get power to the ground (weight in the rear, four link) things like that?

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

relocate as much weight rearward as possible (battery and fuel tank would be two biguns). avoid adding weight as that'll just slow you down. a 4 link will always hook better than leaf springs, but leafs can be set up to get a decent grab (go soft). big, fat, wide tires do more than just look good and something with a soft-ish tread compound and a close tread block will maximize rubber-to-road contact. make sure your final stance is level (you dont want the back higher than the front). you WANT the ass-end to squat when you launch.

 

[Gotta_gofast]

Wicked got it. Do some research on weight transfer. When your vehicle launches, you want the rear to "squat". This is going to position more of the truck's weight over the rear axle. How can you improve your weight transfer? Well, you can install softer springs on the rear. This will help the vehicle "squat" in the back. Likewise, you can run drag coils up front. This will help "lift" the front of the vehicle a little while launching. Reducing weight off the front is going to help. If you run a SBF then consider replacing the iron heads with aluminum heads. Run a cast aluminum manifold. By doing so, your engine will weigh only 50lbs more than a 2.3L!!!

Relocating some of the "movable" weight to the bed will help out a lot, also. My truck, for instance has a 16 gallon fuel cell located in the front of the bed toward the passenger side. My battery is located on the passenger side next to the fuel cell. (In a battery box, ofcourse). The reason for more weight on the passenger side is for two reasons. One, this balances my fat ass. And two, as the driveshaft turns from passengerside to drivers side, the torque applied to the axle from the driveshaft will put more "weight" on the drivers side whilst lifting the passenger side. (this is why most people experience one wheel peel on the passenger side) So this is the second reason for removing weight from the front and adding it to the passenger side.

A 4 link suspension will let you adjust your suspension. This can get very complicated and lengthy. So, if you are serious about it then I can explain it to you. But, generally you won't have to worry about a 4 links unless you are pushing some serious numbers.

Tires with a softer tread compound, wider tires (the contact patch) and a good rubber to void ratio (a slick is 100% rubber, a mud tire is somewhere around 65%) will yield better traction. A soft tire that can "crinkle" the sidewall will give you more contact patch. This is the area of tire that touches the ground. Also, when in the burn-out pit you want your tire to be as close to the same tempurature as the pavement you are racing on. It does no good to do a 2 minute burn out because you will overheat your tires. If its a sunny day and the pavement is a scorching 100*, you should heat your tires up to roughly the same. Likewise, its only 60* and cloudy so the pavement is a cool 70*, you should not heat your tires up much more than 70*.

Now, things that hinder your launch. As cool as they look, wheel stands or wheelies should be kept to a minimum. It takes power to lift the front of your car. This power is coming from your engine. It may be good for showing off, but you really want all that power to go to accelerating the vehicle rather than lifting the front. As said before, a 4 link (and many other types) can be adjusted to provide enough weight transfer that you "hook up" but not too much that you see clouds. Also, a flexing frame is eating some of that torque. You do not want your engine to turn the frame, you want it to turn the wheels! Another more common issue is dealing with wheel hop. This can greatly hurt your 60 foot times. Traction bars are an economical way of dealing with wheel hop on budget.

If your vehicle is a manual, your skill plays a big role in consistent launchs. Let the clutch out to slowly at high rpm and you're wasting your available power. Let it out to quickly at to high of rpm and you risk overpowering your tires and spin. (we talked about tire spin and traction earlier). To low of rpm and your vehicle lugs off the line. This takes practice, as every vehicle is different. If your vehicle is an automatic (like mine) your choice in torque converter plays a big role in launch. You want your torque converter to grab right as your torque curve rises sharply before its peak. This ensures you are multiplying as much torque as possible.

As you see, there are a million factors that come to play. But don't let this scare you! The best way to learn is to get out there and practice. Try things. People can only give you advice, but every vehicle has its own personality. Its up to you to discover what it likes and doesn't like.

 

[Gotta_gofast]

Oh, wait... I think we're all missing the most important item for traction. Get a high quality limited slip differential!!!

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

well, ya....that should be a given.