Elon musk.....

[85_Ranger4x4]

On the used market, they trade for similar prices to the regular Fusions. I paid $16k for a 2 year old car with 23k miles from a dealer. But to your point, the .gov has a handy comparison tool, so here's how the most fuel efficient all gasoline Fusion, the hybrid Fusion, and the PHEV Fusion break down:

Compare Side-by-Side

Compare the MPG of cars and trucks side-by-side. Compare the gas mileage and greenhouse gas emissions of new and used cars and trucks

www.fueleconomy.gov

It was kind of an redundant question.

So according to the .gov site you pay $12k more for a Fusion Energi to save $2500 over 5 years as compared to a normal Fusion? That doesn't pencil out very good to me.

A new Fusion Energi on Ford's website starts at $34k, base gas car starts at $22k.

 

[Dirtman]

Makes sense to me... in 24 years you would have saved enough to break even.

 

[stmitch]

It was kind of an redundant question.

So according to the .gov site you pay $12k more for a Fusion Energi to save $2500 over 5 years as compared to a normal Fusion? That doesn't pencil out very good to me.

A new Fusion Energi on Ford's website starts at $34k, base gas car starts at $22k.

If we're buying new, the PHEV car is eligible for a $4007 federal tax credit, and potentially state tax credits as well which can bring the initial purchase price closer to the gas model by at least 1/3. The Energi models are only available in SE trim or higher. Looks like the gas SE Fusion starts at $27k, so the PHEV stuff adds about 7k price difference to a comparable gas Fusion. Subtract the federal tax credit and it's a $3k difference.

The calculations also assumes that you drive the same cycle as the rating. If you drive more short trips and use the ICE less, the payback is shortened. If you drive more than 15k annually, have cheaper than average electricity, or more expensive than average gas, the payback period is shortened too.

This is drifting away from the topic, so the point is that everybody has to do the math for their specific situation using their specific variables to determine how viable an EV might be, and what kind.

 

[don4331]

Somewhat redundant response as I type too slow:

What Elon has done is made cost of EV close enough to ICE that debate is now possible. (Un)fortunately, he has had to be a little over the top to make any progress.

20 years ago, Ford released the Ranger EV (Ranger content). The 95 Ah NiMH battery weighed ~1,100 lbs and cost ~$40k while lasting ~3 years. With those numbers, EV wasn’t worth owning.
Today’s Li-ion battery in Tesla model 3 weighs ~1,050lbs for 75 Ah Li-ion, while costing $7k and lasting >7 years.

The average price of kWh of electricity in US is ~$0.13; so Model 3 is costing ~$45/1,000miles or $675/yr based on 15k driving. Ford Taurus (to use a roughly equivalent car) uses 53gals/1,000miles, AAA’s average gas cost today is $2.80/gal, so Taurus costs ~$150/1,000 miles or $2,225/yr. Tesla Model 3 costs $35,5k, Taurus SEL AWD costs $32.8k. You pay off the cost delta in fuel before a 2 year lease is up; ignoring gov't grants.

Peak load on grid happens at ~6 pm, large number of people plugging in at night will just average load. Note: Everyone isn’t going to get EV overnight, so utilities will have time to add generating capacity.

p.s. Natural gas is petroleum product. And we’re doing to need petroleum products for lubricants, and in industrial processes (plastics, etc). So we’re not putting petroleumjunkie out of work with electric cars.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

If we're buying new, the PHEV car is eligible for a $4007 federal tax credit, and potentially state tax credits as well which can bring the initial purchase price closer to the gas model by at least 1/3. The Energi models are only available in SE trim or higher. Looks like the gas SE Fusion starts at $27k, so the PHEV stuff adds about 7k price difference to a comparable gas Fusion. Subtract the federal tax credit and it's a $3k difference.

Wonder who pays for the govt tax credits get the pricing within gunshot distance of a regular car?

 

[stmitch]

Wonder who pays for the govt tax credits get the pricing within gunshot distance of a regular car?

The same people that fund low income tax credits, and subsidize agriculture and the oil/natural gas industry, and bailed out the auto makers, and pay for education, and fund defense, etc.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

The same people that fund low income tax credits, and subsidize agriculture and the oil/natural gas industry, and bailed out the auto makers, and pay for education, and fund defense, etc.

As long as it makes them happy, that is the main thing I guess.

I do rank food and defense above electric cars though. Oil is good too since pretty much every newer vehicle at least has a lot of oil based material in it.

IMO the automaker bail out was a joke since they failed anyway.

 

[Dirtman]

Wait... the automaker buyout was a joke? I thought every tax payer owned 51% of GM now?

There goes my retirement plan!

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Wait... the automaker buyout was a joke? I thought every tax payer owned 51% of GM now?

There goes my retirement plan!

I think the company that emerged from bankruptcy paid most of if not all that back.

 

[Uncle Gump]

it also paid for half of my new "green" rooftop HVAC unit... God Bless America

 

[Dirtman]

I think the company that emerged from bankruptcy paid most of if not all that back.

Then wheres my check! I know holden never paid a dime back in australia as they bailed them out too and have basically just packed up shop there...

 

[stmitch]

Nobody is ever completely happy with the way that government spends our money. We all want our taxes to be lower, but we want great schools and clean air/water, and smooth safe streets too. We all selfishly wish that the things that are important to us would get tons of funding, while the things that aren't important to us are just seen as wasteful spending. The US is massive, and diverse with tons of different environments and 300 million people from around the globe. So they fund a little of everything, and sometimes funding goes to things we support and sometimes it goes to things we don't support. You can't make everybody happy all the time, and you can't make a single case apply to everybody.

Personally, I have no problems at all with doing things that will make the planet a nicer, cleaner, healthier place to live and grow better crops. And EVs should reduce the demand for oil, allowing it to be used for things other than propulsion in our cars and trucks.

 

[Bird76Mojo]

The taxpayers LOST money on the bailouts no matter how you slice it. Everyone should be f'n terrified that we've allowed our government to nationalize yet more industries. You have to know what that leads to...

Company	Invested	Sold For	Profit/Loss	Date Bailout Ended
GM	$51.0 billion	$39.7 billion	-$11.3 billion	Dec. 9, 2013
GMAC (Ally)	$17.2 billion	$19.6 billion	+$2.4 billion	Dec. 18, 2014
Chrysler	$12.5 billion	$11.2 billion	-$1.3 billion	May 2011
TOTAL	$80.7 billion	$70.5 billion	- $10.2 billion

One thing I didn't see listed in this discussion is how individual states are treating EV auto owners. Illinois is looking to rake those owners over the coals, because they're "not paying their fair share" of gasoline taxes.. Of course, the state is also looking to double the current gasoline tax to make up for lost revenue.

Let's face it, we're ALL economic slaves to our government. Don't believe me? Stop paying taxes on things you personally produced and profited from. Prison will be like a mini-vacation!

 

[don4331]

One thing I didn't see listed in this discussion is how individual states are treating EV auto owners. Illinois is looking to rake those owners over the coals, because they're "not paying their fair share" of gasoline taxes.. Of course, the state is also looking to double the current gasoline tax to make up for lost revenue.

I can see tax revenue being an issue - ~25% of cost of gasoline here in Alberta is "road tax" (Was 33% before UCP repealed the "carbon tax"). That's a lot of money to be losing. I consider gasoline tax, a fair tax as it is based on consumption - if I'm driving more, I'm wearing out road more so should be paying more. But someplace I believe gov't sidetracked that road tax into general tax.

How does gov't appropriately charge EV users a "consumption" tax? Adding $500/yr, based on average driver, to EV costs really hurts their breakeven point.

 

[Dirtman]

They could just stop spending 4 trillion dollars a year on pens, or hire compenant road crews that do the job for a reasonable cost and not just hire the first shady jackass who slips them a bribe to approve their bid of $57,000 dollars to fill in a pothole.

That might help lower fuel taxes and improve roads?