BS or not?

[Assocracer]

Ok, so I switched my 2011 Ranger Sport 4x4 into four wheel drive a few weeks ago and the front end started whining like a little bitch. So I switched it off and it took about 3-4 min for it to finally disengage the 4x4. When it did it made a huge thud and shook the whole truck. Tried it again with the same results. Later that day I did it one more time to show the wife what I was talking about and then it wouldn't come out of 4x4 at all. When I got to where I was going, I backed up about 10 feet and the 4x4 disengaged without a sound or so much as a small shudder. Took it into the dealer, they tell me the transfer case is shot. Ok, thank God for extended warranties. They put a new transfer case in. I pick it up last night and try the 4x4 as I'm pulling out of the dealership, and it's doing exactly what it did when I brought it in. Turned around and took it right back. I just get a call telling me that the problem is because my front tires have 6/32 tread (which I didn't think they were that low) and that the rears have 11/32 (replaced them a couple months ago). Now I sold, mounted, and balanced tires for 10 years. I know that when you replace tires on a 4x4 you should do all 4, but when I replaced the rears, the fronts were still somewhat new (had about 15k on them). The dealer replaced those when I bought the truck and left the old ones on the front. Those are the ones I replaced. I've never heard of tires causing this kind of problem before. Can someone school me on this or tell me I'm right and that the dealer is full of shit?

 

[pjtoledo]

what type of road surface are you driving on?

 

[Assocracer]

Mainly regular roads. Occasionally snow covered roads.

 

[pjtoledo]

Ok, so I switched my 2011 Ranger Sport 4x4 into four wheel drive a few weeks ago and the front end started whining like a little bitch. So I switched it off and it took about 3-4 min for it to finally disengage the 4x4. When it did it made a huge thud and shook the whole truck. Tried it again with the same results. Later that day I did it one more time to show the wife what I was talking about and then it wouldn't come out of 4x4 at all. When I got to where I was going, I backed up about 10 feet and the 4x4 disengaged without a sound or so much as a small shudder. Took it into the dealer, they tell me the transfer case is shot. Ok, thank God for extended warranties. They put a new transfer case in. I pick it up last night and try the 4x4 as I'm pulling out of the dealership, and it's doing exactly what it did when I brought it in. Turned around and took it right back. I just get a call telling me that the problem is because my front tires have 6/32 tread (which I didn't think they were that low) and that the rears have 11/32 (replaced them a couple months ago). Now I sold, mounted, and balanced tires for 10 years. I know that when you replace tires on a 4x4 you should do all 4, but when I replaced the rears, the fronts were still somewhat new (had about 15k on them). The dealer replaced those when I bought the truck and left the old ones on the front. Those are the ones I replaced. I've never heard of tires causing this kind of problem before. Can someone school me on this or tell me I'm right and that the dealer is full of shit?

that part has me a bit confused. did you use 4 wheel drive on dry pavement?

 

[Assocracer]

that part has me a bit confused. did you use 4 wheel drive on dry pavement?

Only when I cycle it once or twice a month for a 1/4 mile or so just to keep things from seizing up cause that's usually the major cause of a failed 4x4 system. Other then that I mainly use it when there's a snow storm and I gotta drive in it, or if I'm on a muddy dirt road. I use actually use the 4x4 maybe twice a year, and that's mainly in the winter.

 

[wildbill23c]

Yes, tire sizes and tire wear can have an impact on electric shift transfer cases, the slightest amount of size difference even with just tire wear throws the transfer case into a slight bind causing shifting problems, and all sorts of interesting racket when it engages and disengages. That's why its best to replace all 4 tires when buying new tires on a 4WD vehicle.

 

[adsm08]

Ok, so the transfer case is not a center differential, which is what full time AWD vehicles have. Even if the tires are all perfectly the same size when you turn you usually have 4 tires moving at 4 different speeds. In 4x4, even with a diff at each end of the vehicle, this causes a condition we call "drive line windup", which is exactly what it sounds like. The system gets placed under stress and tension by the different linked wheels trying to move at different speeds with nothing to give them any slip. This is why a 4x4 vehicle, in 4x4, will hop through a turn on dry pavement. The tires are giving that slip.

If you have tires that are mismatched in size, even just a bit, and put it in 4x4 on dry pavement this will happen, even going in a straight line. The worse the mismatch the worse the windup. The tires tend not to hop going in a straight line though. So then what happens is you stress the internals of the transfer case, putting them under tension, and start trying to wind up the driveshafts like the rubber band attached to the propeller on one of those balsa wood airplanes. It goes "Bang" when you shift it back to 2WD because you suddenly take that tension off as the front drive disengages.

Or sometimes the shift motor isn't strong enough to pull it back out, and then it gets stuck. But backing up will relieve that tension, and let it come out without a bang.


So yes, under the conditions you described your experience, the banging, the noises, the trashed transfer case, are all 100% normal, expected things to have happen. You did that to it by abusing it in a manner that, if you had bothered to read the owner's manual, you would have seen is an exact condition you were instructed to avoid being in, namely in 4x4 on dry pavement.


The dealership is right, and honestly the warranty shouldn't have been honored at all, because I don't know of any warranty, extended or otherwise, that covers abuse, which is what this is.


If you feel the need to exercise your transfer case keep these few things in mind.

1) Never move in 4x4 on a hard dry surface. Even gravel doesn't always have enough give for it to be safe. Ford says ice, deep snow, or mud are the only acceptable safe terrains.

2) All your front drive line components, including all the transfer case internals, are moving all the time because of the live-axle setup in the front. These pieces are not sitting static and "flat spotting" if that is what you are worried about.

3) The only piece of your 4x4 system that will benefit from being "exercised" is the shift motor. You can do this by just shifting in and out a few times while stopped without doing damage.

 

[bobbywalter]

Ok, so the transfer case is not a center differential, which is what full time AWD vehicles have. Even if the tires are all perfectly the same size when you turn you usually have 4 tires moving at 4 different speeds. In 4x4, even with a diff at each end of the vehicle, this causes a condition we call "drive line windup", which is exactly what it sounds like. The system gets placed under stress and tension by the different linked wheels trying to move at different speeds with nothing to give them any slip. This is why a 4x4 vehicle, in 4x4, will hop through a turn on dry pavement. The tires are giving that slip.

If you have tires that are mismatched in size, even just a bit, and put it in 4x4 on dry pavement this will happen, even going in a straight line. The worse the mismatch the worse the windup. The tires tend not to hop going in a straight line though. So then what happens is you stress the internals of the transfer case, putting them under tension, and start trying to wind up the driveshafts like the rubber band attached to the propeller on one of those balsa wood airplanes. It goes "Bang" when you shift it back to 2WD because you suddenly take that tension off as the front drive disengages.

Or sometimes the shift motor isn't strong enough to pull it back out, and then it gets stuck. But backing up will relieve that tension, and let it come out without a bang.


So yes, under the conditions you described your experience, the banging, the noises, the trashed transfer case, are all 100% normal, expected things to have happen. You did that to it by abusing it in a manner that, if you had bothered to read the owner's manual, you would have seen is an exact condition you were instructed to avoid being in, namely in 4x4 on dry pavement.


The dealership is right, and honestly the warranty shouldn't have been honored at all, because I don't know of any warranty, extended or otherwise, that covers abuse, which is what this is.


If you feel the need to exercise your transfer case keep these few things in mind.

1) Never move in 4x4 on a hard dry surface. Even gravel doesn't always have enough give for it to be safe. Ford says ice, deep snow, or mud are the only acceptable safe terrains.

2) All your front drive line components, including all the transfer case internals, are moving all the time because of the live-axle setup in the front. These pieces are not sitting static and "flat spotting" if that is what you are worried about.

3) The only piece of your 4x4 system that will benefit from being "exercised" is the shift motor. You can do this by just shifting in and out a few times while stopped without doing damage.

rare moments.


hmm. I have to 1000 percent disagree with your assessment of this situation even remotely entering the realm of abuse..


not even in the same galaxy.

 

[adsm08]

rare moments.


hmm. I have to 1000 percent disagree with your assessment of this situation even remotely entering the realm of abuse..


not even in the same galaxy.

That's because we live in galaxies where "abuse" has different definitions.

My threshold for abuse is when Ford says "don't do that".

I am quite sure yours is much higher.

 

[Curious Hound]

That's because we live in galaxies where "abuse" has different definitions.

My threshold for abuse is when Ford says "don't do that".

I am quite sure yours is much higher.

Agreed. If you ran 4wd in hard, dry pavement, you abused the system. If you don't like the term "abused" then we can say "improperly used" or something like that. But it means the same thing. The system was used in conditions that it was not designed for and, therefore, breakage occurred.

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[Assocracer]

Ok, so the transfer case is not a center differential, which is what full time AWD vehicles have. Even if the tires are all perfectly the same size when you turn you usually have 4 tires moving at 4 different speeds. In 4x4, even with a diff at each end of the vehicle, this causes a condition we call "drive line windup", which is exactly what it sounds like. The system gets placed under stress and tension by the different linked wheels trying to move at different speeds with nothing to give them any slip. This is why a 4x4 vehicle, in 4x4, will hop through a turn on dry pavement. The tires are giving that slip.

If you have tires that are mismatched in size, even just a bit, and put it in 4x4 on dry pavement this will happen, even going in a straight line. The worse the mismatch the worse the windup. The tires tend not to hop going in a straight line though. So then what happens is you stress the internals of the transfer case, putting them under tension, and start trying to wind up the driveshafts like the rubber band attached to the propeller on one of those balsa wood airplanes. It goes "Bang" when you shift it back to 2WD because you suddenly take that tension off as the front drive disengages.

Or sometimes the shift motor isn't strong enough to pull it back out, and then it gets stuck. But backing up will relieve that tension, and let it come out without a bang.


So yes, under the conditions you described your experience, the banging, the noises, the trashed transfer case, are all 100% normal, expected things to have happen. You did that to it by abusing it in a manner that, if you had bothered to read the owner's manual, you would have seen is an exact condition you were instructed to avoid being in, namely in 4x4 on dry pavement.


The dealership is right, and honestly the warranty shouldn't have been honored at all, because I don't know of any warranty, extended or otherwise, that covers abuse, which is what this is.


If you feel the need to exercise your transfer case keep these few things in mind.

1) Never move in 4x4 on a hard dry surface. Even gravel doesn't always have enough give for it to be safe. Ford says ice, deep snow, or mud are the only acceptable safe terrains.

2) All your front drive line components, including all the transfer case internals, are moving all the time because of the live-axle setup in the front. These pieces are not sitting static and "flat spotting" if that is what you are worried about.

3) The only piece of your 4x4 system that will benefit from being "exercised" is the shift motor. You can do this by just shifting in and out a few times while stopped without doing damage.

Technically then, it would be the dealer's fault because when they replaced the tires, they only replaced two tires. And they did the cardinal sin of not replacing them with the exact same tire, as this can cause the same issues that I'm experiencing as well. I simply replaced the two tires that they didn't replace. When I replaced them, the other two still looked brand new, which is why I didn't replace all four.

You guys are telling me that I'm doing what Ford says not to do. But so did the dealer by only replacing two tires, AND replacing them with two tires that were not the same as the other two. But thank you for answering my question guys. I just wanted to make sure that the dealer wasn't giving me a line of bullshit. In your first paragraph, you pretty much say word for word what the service writer said. I understood what he was saying, but didn't think that having tires that were less than 1/8" in difference in diameter would cause that severe of an issue.

What you call abuse is not what the dealer calls abuse. Nobody reads the owners manual cover to cover. And given that I really don't use the 4x4, I didn't think it would trash the transfer case that quickly. The only time I actually use the 4x4 is in the snow. Also, doesn't the front diff allow for the inner tire when turning to spin slower than the outer tire? I mean, I know that the front wheels hop when you turn in 4x4, they'll even hop on snowy pavement, but I usually notice that it's the outside tire that hops. I know that the output shaft from the transfer case to the front diff is spinning at the same speed as the drive shaft from the transmission to the rear diff, but when the truck is turning, don't the two differentials compensate for that by allowing the tires on the turning side of the truck to spin slower than the tires on the outside? I kinda thought that was the whole point of a differential? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just stating what I thought how it works. I could be wrong. I was kind of wondering what was free spinning when it wasn't in 4x4. Wasn't sure if it disengaged at the transfer case AND the front diff, or just at one or the other. So when not in 4x4 the transfer case is allowed to spin at whatever speed the front wheels are spinning independent of the rear wheels right?

 

[bobbywalter]

the funny.....the t case is the strongest part of the ranger drivetrain.

That's because we live in galaxies where "abuse" has different definitions.

My threshold for abuse is when Ford says "don't do that".

I am quite sure yours is much higher.

no.

Agreed. If you ran 4wd in hard, dry pavement, you abused the system. If you don't like the term "abused" then we can say "improperly used" or something like that. But it means the same thing. The system was used in conditions that it was not designed for and, therefore, breakage occurred.

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no. it is not abuse. there was a time it was recommended....like in the fuking owners manual recommended...... to briefly engage it a few miles per month. sure preferably on a dirt/gravel road...but a few miles here and there wont hurt it. it is not abuse.


so what he described as doing with that ancient t case design....is not abuse.


driving all over town and flooring it trying to do donuts or sharp corners and complaining about the torturous understeer would be abuse.

your a ford mechanic. you know this.


of course.....like you outlined...since this does not have lockouts...not really much point in doing it. though on a cad axle its still smart to exercise it.

 

[pjtoledo]

yes the axle differentials allow the wheels on that axle to spin at different speeds.
the sum of the 2 wheel speeds equals the driveshaft speed for that axle.
when cornering the front of the truck goes farther than the back of the truck, so the driveshafts must be turning at different speeds. in 2wd its a non-issue as the driveshafts are disconnected from each other.
now about 4wd: the transfer case being in 4wd emphatically states the front and rear drive shafts must rotate at the same speed.
when going around a corner that doesn't happen and something has to give, usually the wheel with the least traction slips. occasionally the traction it too great and the transfer case becomes the weakest part. either way it puts way too much strain on the drivetrain.

about the tires being identical sizes, in a perfect world that would be fantastic.
however, look at your tires. the front of the truck is heavier so the tires squat more and the rolling distance is different front to rear.
that means even with perfectly matched tires they still aren't matched. putting the new/taller tires on the rear adds to the disparity. in 4wd terms one would think it is best to put the newer/taller tires on the front for a better match. however that flies in the face of safety as the rear slides out in bad conditions.

moral of the story: don't use 4wd on hi-traction surfaces.

 

[bobbywalter]

yeah....part time 4x4 is simple enough to understand.


its not abuse to exercise it a few miles per month. if your racing down the tail of the dragon...abuse....driving a few miles to store. not abuse. trying to park in tight parking spot or super sharp turn...abuse. but you will know your fawking up....hard to miss it.

 

[cp2295]

Only time I’d engage 4x4 on pavement is in a straight line for a small stretch if I hadn’t put it in 4 in a while. I most definitely would not turn. Or drive around town like it was just another day..

If I knew I had mismatched tires I would only go in 4 on loose surfaces. And would never go in 4 period with different size tires or axle ratios for that matter


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