Anyone electrifying?

[Ranger850]

I heard that solar panels only collect about 1/3 of the suns energy and reflect the rest. The panels haven't improved much since their inception. IMO Solar panels are a waste of time, until they become more efficient. Not saying they don't work, just saying we could do better than BLACK Shiny Glass. See "Planned Obsolescence" - They don't want to solve a problem if they can make money off of it.

 

[Chapap]

I heard that solar panels only collect about 1/3 of the suns energy and reflect the rest. The panels haven't improved much since their inception. IMO Solar panels are a waste of time, until they become more efficient. Not saying they don't work, just saying we could do better than BLACK Shiny Glass. See "Planned Obsolescence" - They don't want to solve a problem if they can make money off of it.

From the very little I know, there are mono and polycrystalline panels. I recently did some quick research for the house. poly is much better but way much more expensive so isn't feasible. The idea behind them is you get them on a loan, pay the loan with savings from electricity you didn't have to buy, then reap benefits for the remainder of their lifespan. It seemed really risky to me.

I think the solar plants that use only heat is a neat idea. A bunch of mirrors that aim at a radiator to boil water for steam turbines.

I've seen solar water heaters that seemed really cool too. Just a radiator on the roof that sits between the water source and hot water heater. Completely passive and barely anything to maintain. But at <$0.02 per gallon to raise temp by 80*, that too doesn't seem to make a ton of sense... especially since most people shower when the sun isn't up.

 

[Snoranger]

I dont feel its right to ask people to change their lifestyle…

But you do it all the time!!
Your opinion is that we shouldn’t be able to buy a Maverick because they don’t suit your needs.
Your opinion is that we shouldn’t be able to buy a crew cab/ 5.5’ bed because it’s “not a real truck”.

They’re opinion is that you shouldn’t be able to use gasoline because it’s killing the planet.

 

[stmitch]

I think the expected life for panels is 10-15 years, depending on the quality of the panel.

Most decent panels have 25 year warranties these days. Solar panels lose production capacity as they age (median 0.5% per year):

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51664.pdf

It seems like most of the warranties that I've read cover "Failure" of the panels which is somewhere around 80% of original production capacity. But even at 80% of original capacity the panels would still be producing electricity, so it's not as if they shut down completely and leave you in the dark.

Inverters have shorter lives than panels, but they're less expensive.

 

[oldgeek]

Again, it's not about finding the perfect option because that doesn't exist. It's about finding the least bad option while hopefully reducing consumption in general. The world will surpass 8 billion humans this year. They can't all live like Americans have for the last 70 years when the population was 2.5 billion. It will require lifestyle change of some sort. The question is what steps can be taken to improve efficiency enough that lifestyle change is kept to a minimum?

And the biggest negative impact on "green energy" will be on the poor. One essential way to raise people out of poverty is to provide cheap energy. The only way 'green energy' is cheap is through subsidies. If and when they run out, it will no longer be cheap. And the beneficial impact of 'green energy' on the so called 'climate crisis', even by the computer models (that have already been demonstrated to be faulty), is very minimal compared to providing energy from traditional sources.

It has been observed that when people are raised to a better standard of living, they are more concerned about the environment. It's hard to be concerned about what is imagined to happen decades from now when one is wondering if they are going to have a meal today, or even, this week.

 

[stmitch]

I dont feel its right to ask people to change their lifestyle to meet the confines of "clean" energy when that money and effort could be better spent on building things to help people cope with the effects of "climate change", and we just continue on our normal lives.

Cause...the earth is going to do what its going to do and theres nothing we can do.

What I'm saying is that there are steps you can take to live more efficiently that will enable you to live the same lifestyle much longer than doing nothing will. And, it will allow you to be more independent from big corporations, foreign oil, the government, or whatever other entity you don't like too. There's usually a financial benefit as well.

There's going to be lifestyle change no matter what. We can try to reduce consumption and live more efficiently, or we can continue doing what we're doing and be forced to change when we can't grow the foods that we like, or we have to move because of drought, flooding, frequent wildfires, etc. If the coasts of the US flood or have wildfires all the time, where do you think those people are going to go? They're moving to your neighborhood, which is going to require some lifestyle change from you. Change is constant. Either path is going to require lifestyle change, but one path at least has the potential for better outcomes.

Also...atleast historically, birthrates go down and death rates go up when resources are scarce. The reason for the population boom of the last 60 yrs or whatever is due to cheap readily available resources, and people living longer.

Actually, historically birth rates drop as nations become wealthier. The vast majority of the population boom that has occurred globally has come in poorer nations of Asia:

Population Boom: Charting How We Got to Nearly 8 Billion People

In the next year or so, humanity is expected to pass the 8 billion person milestone. These charts and maps put global population growth into context.

www.visualcapitalist.com

 

[rusty ol ranger]

But you do it all the time!!
Your opinion is that we shouldn’t be able to buy a Maverick because they don’t suit your needs.
Your opinion is that we shouldn’t be able to buy a crew cab/ 5.5’ bed because it’s “not a real truck”.

They’re opinion is that you shouldn’t be able to use gasoline because it’s killing the planet.

Im not asking anyone to change their lifestyle. Im just saying if you want a truck then be willing to accept the trucklike attributes, instead of demanding they be changed to suit your tastes at the expense of those who actually buy a truck to be a truck.

You wanna live more "green"? Fine...be my guest but dont shove it down my throat. You want a truck? Fine, but dont shove your sissification of them down my throat.

Besides me bitching on TRS isnt exactly the same as people of power telling people like me i need to "change" when i have zero reason or want to.

 

[stmitch]

And the biggest negative impact on "green energy" will be on the poor. One essential way to raise people out of poverty is to provide cheap energy. The only way 'green energy' is cheap is through subsidies. If and when they run out, it will no longer be cheap. And the beneficial impact of 'green energy' on the so called 'climate crisis', even by the computer models (that have already been demonstrated to be faulty), is very minimal compared to providing energy from traditional sources.

It has been observed that when people are raised to a better standard of living, they are more concerned about the environment. It's hard to be concerned about what is imagined to happen decades from now when one is wondering if they are going to have a meal today, or even, this week.

Yes and no. If you were living in the middle of Africa, or rural India and wanted to provide power to a farm, or village what's the cheapest and easiest way to do that? Is it to run miles and miles of wires from wherever the nearest power station is? Is it to have a gasoline or diesel fueled generator? Or is it to let them generate their own power with solar or wind? It was incredibly common for farms to have working windmills 100 years ago because they didn't have access to enough power to do the work.

The irony of wealthier people being more concerned about the environment is that developed nations also tend to have the highest pollution per capita too. Awareness is great, but consumption is what matters. Poor people aren't consuming very much because they simply don't have the means. Energy production is a large source of global pollution, but manufacturing is even bigger and more difficult to clean up. It's manufacturing stuff (consumer demand) that is driving a very large part of global pollution. And that's tied to population and lifestyle.

Lifting people out of poverty is terrific. But it's also increasing consumption on a global scale that's quickly becoming unsustainable. This is why we not only need to be smarter about how we use energy, but also why we must reduce consumption in the first place.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

What I'm saying is that there are steps you can take to live more efficiently that will enable you to live the same lifestyle much longer than doing nothing will. And, it will allow you to be more independent from big corporations, foreign oil, the government, or whatever other entity you don't like too. There's usually a financial benefit as well.

There's going to be lifestyle change no matter what. We can try to reduce consumption and live more efficiently, or we can continue doing what we're doing and be forced to change when we can't grow the foods that we like, or we have to move because of drought, flooding, frequent wildfires, etc. If the coasts of the US flood or have wildfires all the time, where do you think those people are going to go? They're moving to your neighborhood, which is going to require some lifestyle change from you. Change is constant. Either path is going to require lifestyle change, but one path at least has the potential for better outcomes.



Actually, historically birth rates drop as nations become wealthier. The vast majority of the population boom that has occurred globally has come in poorer nations of Asia:

Population Boom: Charting How We Got to Nearly 8 Billion People

In the next year or so, humanity is expected to pass the 8 billion person milestone. These charts and maps put global population growth into context.

www.visualcapitalist.com

Thats what im saying....use all the money and time in creating programs to clear wildfire fuel, build desaliznation plants to use ocean water, build bigger and better dams, levys, and seawalls. Come up with better drought resistant crops, etc etc. Imagine the jobs it would create, the money it would pump into the economy, etc etc.

Just seems like the better way to go that more people would accept.

Cause i can tell you there are alot of people out there that are all about being sustainable untill it starts making things rougher or more expensive for them, then they reject it.

Meanwhile ill be over here driving my 10mpg truck, riding my gas burning toys, cooking my steak on a gas grill, and keeping my natural gas furnace set at a warm temp and my AC sucking juice from coal at a nice cool temp in summer.

Why? Because this is the damn USA and ive worked hard and im going to enjoy life.

 

[Snoranger]

Im not asking anyone to change their lifestyle. Im just saying if you want a truck then be willing to accept the trucklike attributes, instead of demanding they be changed to suit your tastes at the expense of those who actually buy a truck to be a truck.

You wanna live more "green"? Fine...be my guest but dont shove it down my throat. You want a truck? Fine, but dont shove your sissification of them down my throat.

Besides me bitching on TRS isnt exactly the same as people of power telling people like me i need to "change" when i have zero reason or want to.

Here’s the difference… you’re just one person. Your opinion doesn’t matter. When you get a big enough group of people, with the same opinion together, they form a movement and force their opinion to matter. Go get more people together and start a movement.

You keep talking about these “sissy trucks”… (which, by the way, you’re insulting the members here and on our Maverick forum that want/ bought/ ordered one by saying that… please refrain from insulting other members.) I told you, you can go buy a stripped down F250 XL, regular cab, 8’ bed with manual windows, locks, etc. But you keep whining about what other people want. WHAT YOU WANT IN A TRUCK IS AVAILABLE, QUIT YOUR BITCHING AND GO BUY ONE. If not, don’t complain when the manufacturers stop producing it because of low volume.

Unless, it’s not really about you not being able to get what you want, and it’s just about you wanting to complain about what other people want.

 

[oldgeek]

Yes and no. If you were living in the middle of Africa, or rural India and wanted to provide power to a farm, or village what's the cheapest and easiest way to do that? Is it to run miles and miles of wires from wherever the nearest power station is? Is it to have a gasoline or diesel fueled generator? Or is it to let them generate their own power with solar or wind? It was incredibly common for farms to have working windmills 100 years ago because they didn't have access to enough power to do the work.

Impoverished people living in impoverished nations are going to be able to purchase solar panels or a wind generator? If it is some kind of public funding that is going to provide energy, traditional methods are much cheaper and more reliable. It's a stretch to compare an very simple windmill water pump and an electric wind generator that is quite complex and very expensive. If there ever is going to be any help for these people, simple is best. That has been historically demonstrated, especially in the agricultural field. There are some groups that have realized that, and they are engineering very simple and reliable ways for communities to do things, such as easier ways to dig water wells with available resources.

 

[oldgeek]

Go get more people together and start a movement.

I don't need more people to start a movement. I do that quite well all by myself, thank you.

 

[Snoranger]

I don't need more people to start a movement. I do that quite well all by myself, thank you.

I’ll just file that under “Things I didn’t need to know.”

 

[rusty ol ranger]

If not, don’t complain when the manufacturers stop producing it because of low volume.

But im only one person....i dont matter.

 

[Snoranger]

But im only one person....i dont matter.

Get enough people together and you will.