Anyone electrifying?

[stmitch]

I think more than 5% need a fast charger:

All 3 of my kids live in apartment complexes - that's 3 vehicles that need a fast charger at least a couple times a week. So, for our extended family that would be 60% need fast charger/40% that can trickle charge at home.​

I agree that more than 5% of drivers would need to use a fast charger. But the post I was initially responding to talked about EV ownership requiring "a big charger" at home. For most people that can charge where they park (either at home or work), a simple 240v outlet is plenty to handle their charging needs. Lots of people can and do get by just fine with a regular 120v outlet replenishing their daily mileage. The "big" fast DC chargers are all 400V or more, and nobody is really doing that at home.

 

[stmitch]

Gas- 20 miles every 30 seconds.

That's true. But the driver of the EV doesn't actually spend that time waiting on their vehicle to charge in most daily use. They plug the vehicle in, which takes 5 seconds, and whenever they come back it's juiced up. Or they plug in at a Walmart on their road trip while they pick up some snacks or whatever and come back out to put another 150 miles on it. It ends up being more convenient than having to make a dedicated stop for liquid fuel once per week or whatever.

It's like having a gas pump in your garage that wouldn't need to be attended. You'd just insert the nozzle when you got home, and you'd come out the next morning to a full tank. Every day.

 

[superj]

Except on road trips. Than you have to make dedicated stops and make yourself get food or walk around for a an hour or whatever amount of time it takes

 

[rusty ol ranger]

That's true. But the driver of the EV doesn't actually spend that time waiting on their vehicle to charge in most daily use. They plug the vehicle in, which takes 5 seconds, and whenever they come back it's juiced up. Or they plug in at a Walmart on their road trip while they pick up some snacks or whatever and come back out to put another 150 miles on it. It ends up being more convenient than having to make a dedicated stop for liquid fuel once per week or whatever.

It's like having a gas pump in your garage that wouldn't need to be attended. You'd just insert the nozzle when you got home, and you'd come out the next morning to a full tank. Every day.

Or you can spend 5 min on your errand day filling your tank and not worry about it for another week.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

Except on road trips. Than you have to make dedicated stops and make yourself get food or walk around for a an hour or whatever amount of time it takes

Lots of road trips per year? Then electric isn't for you.... Yet! But in the fairly near future there will be battery capacity and or fill stations allowing easy road trips.

 

[stmitch]

Except on road trips. Than you have to make dedicated stops and make yourself get food or walk around for a an hour or whatever amount of time it takes

Yep. Road trips are often less convenient with an EV than an ICE. But day to day is often more convenient. So it comes down to how often road trips are taken. Is it worth buying something to be convenient a couple of times per year or every day?

Lets say you have 2 tasks to complete, and must choose between two tools. Task 1 is something you do hundreds of times per year. Task 2 is something you do 1-5 times per year. Do you choose the tool that saves time on Task 1 or Task 2? I'd opt to save time on the thing that I do hundreds of times per year personally, but it's a personal decision.

If anybody wants to simulate a typical road trip they might take in an EV (including charging time) this site can be a helpful tool:

A Better Routeplanner Classic

A Better Routeplanner Classic has Retired

abetterrouteplanner.com

In lots of cases, the EV time vs the ICE time may not be as different as you'd expect.

 

[RonD]

I think if you look back to early 1900's and the development of "filling stations", or lack there of, lol, you will see a familiar pattern of development where there needed to be enough demand before people would invest in this "new" technology, to open up a "filling station"
If you had an ICE vehicle in the 1920's you had better carry extra fuel for a "road trip" although there were no "roads", lol, and no filling stations either, some General Stores did sell gasoline if you brought in your own container, much like kerosene was sold at the time

There are 2.3 million EVs registered in the US, and 290 million vehicles registered, so not quite 1%
But its growing
Some cities like San Fran are up to 3% EVs on the road

So as time goes by and there are more EVs on the road there will be "filling station" but more likely "EV Stops" like Truck Stops that have a restaurant or a "Roadside Attraction" for the kids, with plenty of "self serve" Charge Stations

I remember road trips with Grandpa where filling stations were not every 100miles, and signs that said "Next Service 250 miles"
Younger people may not remember HAVING TO PLAN road trips to make sure there were filling stations close enough together for your vehicle, and OPEN, many were 8 to 5 and for sure closed on Sundays

 

[JoshT]

That's true. But the driver of the EV doesn't actually spend that time waiting on their vehicle to charge in most daily use. They plug the vehicle in, which takes 5 seconds, and whenever they come back it's juiced up. Or they plug in at a Walmart on their road trip while they pick up some snacks or whatever and come back out to put another 150 miles on it. It ends up being more convenient than having to make a dedicated stop for liquid fuel once per week or whatever.

It's like having a gas pump in your garage that wouldn't need to be attended. You'd just insert the nozzle when you got home, and you'd come out the next morning to a full tank. Every day.

I live in a pretty populated area, no Atlanta, but far from being a podunk town. Can't speak for the rest of the country, but Walmarts around here don't have charging stations in the parking lot. I haven't seen any stores with ev charging stations in the parking lot. The only filling station I've seen with ev chargers was a Buc-ees. 120 gas pumps and about 10 ev chargers IIRC. Not saying that there aren't more around but they aren't at the local shops and grocery stores.

Yep. Road trips are often less convenient with an EV than an ICE. But day to day is often more convenient. So it comes down to how often road trips are taken. Is it worth buying something to be convenient a couple of times per year or every day?

Lets say you have 2 tasks to complete, and must choose between two tools. Task 1 is something you do hundreds of times per year. Task 2 is something you do 1-5 times per year. Do you choose the tool that saves time on Task 1 or Task 2? I'd opt to save time on the thing that I do hundreds of times per year personally, but it's a personal decision.

If anybody wants to simulate a typical road trip they might take in an EV (including charging time) this site can be a helpful tool:

A Better Routeplanner Classic

A Better Routeplanner Classic has Retired

abetterrouteplanner.com

In lots of cases, the EV time vs the ICE time may not be as different as you'd expect.

But can you take the route that you want getting across the country or do you have to plan your route around available charging stations?

Gas isn't an inconvenience every day. Maybe 5-10 minutes once a week. That's with me driving 300+ miles a week. It would actually be more of an inconvenience to plug in and charge up every night.

I think if you look back to early 1900's and the development of "filling stations", or lack there of, lol, you will see a familiar pattern of development where there needed to be enough demand before people would invest in this "new" technology, to open up a "filling station"
If you had an ICE vehicle in the 1920's you had better carry extra fuel for a "road trip" although there were no "roads", lol, and no filling stations either, some General Stores did sell gasoline if you brought in your own container, much like kerosene was sold at the time

There are 2.3 million EVs registered in the US, and 290 million vehicles registered, so not quite 1%
But its growing
Some cities like San Fran are up to 3% EVs on the road

So as time goes by and there are more EVs on the road there will be "filling station" but more likely "EV Stops" like Truck Stops that have a restaurant or a "Roadside Attraction" for the kids, with plenty of "self serve" Charge Stations

I remember road trips with Grandpa where filling stations were not every 100miles, and signs that said "Next Service 250 miles"
Younger people may not remember HAVING TO PLAN road trips to make sure there were filling stations close enough together for your vehicle, and OPEN, many were 8 to 5 and for sure closed on Sundays

At least with an ICE I can carry along a couple of gas cans if I'm going into an area like that. With an EV I'd need a few gas cans, a generator, and a bunch of time for that generator to charge it back up. Whole lot quicker to wait for a gas can to drain, than to wait for a generator to charge up a battery.

 

[RonD]

I live in a pretty populated area, no Atlanta, but far from being a podunk town. Can't speak for the rest of the country, but Walmarts around here don't have charging stations in the parking lot. I haven't seen any stores with ev charging stations in the parking lot. The only filling station I've seen with ev chargers was a Buc-ees. 120 gas pumps and about 10 ev chargers IIRC. Not saying that there aren't more around but they aren't at the local shops and grocery stores.
But can you take the route that you want getting across the country or do you have to plan your route around available charging stations?

Gas isn't an inconvenience every day. Maybe 5-10 minutes once a week. That's with me driving 300+ miles a week. It would actually be more of an inconvenience to plug in and charge up every night.
At least with an ICE I can carry along a couple of gas cans if I'm going into an area like that. With an EV I'd need a few gas cans, a generator, and a bunch of time for that generator to charge it back up. Whole lot quicker to wait for a gas can to drain, than to wait for a generator to charge up a battery.

I get that you like the "horse" many did, and still do, Amish still do, don't seem to be worse off for it
No reason for you to embrace newer things, but also no reason to put down newer technology either
No one made the Amish buy cars, by taking away their horses, and you will be able to use ICE until the day you die, which is hopefully a very long time

Amish don't think powered vehicles are Evil, or morally wrong, they just choose not to use them on a daily basis, they believe its better for their community, and they are not wrong, lol
They ride in cars and buses because its practical on longer trips, they have nothing bad to say about powered vehicles


People have always had to plan a route based on means of travel, on foot or on horses you need water, clean drinkable water, but you can carry extra water, not much but can extend travel distance a bit
And obviously, by boat, you kinda need water, deeper water and you go where the water/river goes, not your route, the river's route

Humans have always been restricted by their current means of travel
The airplane really opened things up, but we are currently stuck on the planet Earth, if you look at things in a negative way

I think in 100 years there will be ICE clubs where members bring out their cars and trucks on the weekend for a rally
Kind of like a Horse Show today, lol

 

[JoshT]

I get that you like the "horse" many did, and still do, Amish still do, don't seem to be worse off for it
No reason for you to embrace newer things, but also no reason to put down newer technology either
No one made the Amish buy cars, by taking away their horses, and you will be able to use ICE until the day you die, which is hopefully a very long time

Amish don't think powered vehicles are Evil, or morally wrong, they just choose not to use them on a daily basis, they believe its better for their community, and they are not wrong, lol
They ride in cars and buses because its practical on longer trips, they have nothing bad to say about powered vehicles


People have always had to plan a route based on means of travel, on foot or on horses you need water, clean drinkable water, but you can carry extra water, not much but can extend travel distance a bit
And obviously, by boat, you kinda need water, deeper water and you go where the water/river goes, not your route, the river's route

Humans have always been restricted by their current means of travel
The airplane really opened things up, but we are currently stuck on the planet Earth, if you look at things in a negative way

I think in 100 years there will be ICE clubs where members bring out their cars and trucks on the weekend for a rally
Kind of like a Horse Show today, lol

Sounds like you're comparing apples and hand grenades.

You're right no one is trying to take horses away from the Amish, well maybe PETA, but that's another story.

I'm not amish and we're not talking about horses here. There is no legislation currently in place or consideration saying all ICE is banned, but don't think for a moment that they aren't trying to get rid of them. As has been said countless times in countless other threads, they don't have to tell you that you can't own or drive your ICE vehicles. All they have to do is remove your ability to repair, maintain, and feed them. Those are things they are actively trying to affect through right-to-repair, EPA, and various other means. They can effective ban an ICE vehicle and remove them through attrition without ever making a law aimed directly at the vehicle.

You're not wrong, human travel has always been determined by the resources available. We've always found ways to make resources available. If we only traveled where resources were available we'd still be traveling on foot near water. We adapt and move resources to where we need them. We built plumbing to move water, we built fueling stations in the middle of the desert, many other examples.

The fact remains that if we want to travel somewhere that doesn't have plumbing or fueling stations, water and fuel can be put in a jug and carried anywhere. Electricity not so easy, at least not in the quantities required to power an EV.

For cross country travel, unless heading through the desert or rural idaho, we haven't had to plan trips around resources for nearly half a century. Probably longer. At current you can't do that with EV. If the nation's goal is to push people towards EV, then develop the support network, demonstrate that it can fully replace ICE, then sell it to us. It will cost, cost a lot, but it's not like the U.S. isn;t already trillions in debt for lesser crap. If we're heading there anyway the infastructure won't be wasted and will pay for itself in the long run.

Until the infrastructure is there pushing EV is effectively trying to limit people's ability to travel. Controlling and containing people soundle a lot like something else. I've seen the argument that other countries have muchwider adoption of EV and people aren't limited in travel, to that I say that the U.S. has a lot more open land and much smaller population density that most of those countries. There are a whole lot of destinations here that are way off the beaten path.

You're also right, 100 years from now people will probably still be having ICE shows like Horse shows. Like the horse shows of today the ICE vehicles will probably be loaded in a trailer and hauled to the show, because they can't be driven/ridden to where the show is. Also like the horse shows most people at them will be spectators because they can't afford one, or as much as they like them it's too impractical to fit into their life.

I don't expect what I've said to makes sense to anyone else. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Just trying to say my views. I'm not anti-EV, I just think that we aren't ready for it yet. The technology isn't ready yet. ICE was cheap and profitable, so funding wasn't invested into EV R&D like it should have been. We should have been at this point a few decades ago. Technology is finally advancing, and advancing rapidly, but the support network still hasn't caught up. Once it does, and once we can produce a cleaner battery, I'll be much more onboard.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I get that you like the "horse" many did, and still do, Amish still do, don't seem to be worse off for it
No reason for you to embrace newer things, but also no reason to put down newer technology either
No one made the Amish buy cars, by taking away their horses, and you will be able to use ICE until the day you die, which is hopefully a very long time

Amish don't think powered vehicles are Evil, or morally wrong, they just choose not to use them on a daily basis, they believe its better for their community, and they are not wrong, lol
They ride in cars and buses because its practical on longer trips, they have nothing bad to say about powered vehicles


People have always had to plan a route based on means of travel, on foot or on horses you need water, clean drinkable water, but you can carry extra water, not much but can extend travel distance a bit
And obviously, by boat, you kinda need water, deeper water and you go where the water/river goes, not your route, the river's route

Humans have always been restricted by their current means of travel
The airplane really opened things up, but we are currently stuck on the planet Earth, if you look at things in a negative way

I think in 100 years there will be ICE clubs where members bring out their cars and trucks on the weekend for a rally
Kind of like a Horse Show today, lol

The transition from horse and buggy to gas powered cars have nothing in common with the EV push...as in...model T's or whatever wernt being pushed down everyones throat through legislation, people adopted them because they were the better option. If EV's were so great people would adopt them much faster then they are and they wouldnt need mandates and tax breaks to sell.

EV's are not better then IC, they are at best equal and in most ways pretty damn inferior. No one with a license today is going to see a day where gas and gas powered vehicles arnt readily available,

 

[stmitch]

I live in a pretty populated area, no Atlanta, but far from being a podunk town. Can't speak for the rest of the country, but Walmarts around here don't have charging stations in the parking lot. I haven't seen any stores with ev charging stations in the parking lot. The only filling station I've seen with ev chargers was a Buc-ees. 120 gas pumps and about 10 ev chargers IIRC. Not saying that there aren't more around but they aren't at the local shops and grocery stores.

I see 63 public chargers in Macon county, including the Walmart in Forsyth, and Plantation Village Shopping Center. Some are even free:

Macon-Bibb County, Georgia EV Charging Stations | PlugShare

Looking for EV Charging Stations in Macon-Bibb County? PlugShare's map has 13 Free EV Charging Stations, with 158 total EV Charging Stations in Macon-Bibb County, Georgia.

www.plugshare.com

Lets also remember that gasoline infrastructure has had mountains of public and private dollars fed into it's expansion for over a century now. EVs have been a thing for a decade. Charging access will only improve. They don't really need as many EV chargers as they do gas pumps because most EV owners can charge at home. They still need to add chargers of course, but I don't think they'll ever need to have the number of EV chargers equal the number of gas pumps because lots of EV owners have charging at home, and nobody has a gas pump at home.

If you charge at home, you leave with the equivalent of a full tank everyday. You don't need chargers nearby, you need them 150+ miles away. That's why you see them primarily along major highways, or at destinations like hotels, shopping centers, etc.

But can you take the route that you want getting across the country or do you have to plan your route around available charging stations?

Maybe? I'm not saying that EVs are perfect for every single situation. I'm saying that they're getting more and more livable every day. If you were to take a cross country road trip in a hundred years ago, the ICE fueling infrastructure was pretty spotty too. It's all convenient and easy now but it's taken time and tons of money to get there. I'd argue that there's probably better EV charging infrastructure now (10 years after the earliest mainstream EVs) than there was ICE fueling infrastructure in 1922. It's growing at a faster rate. It's easier to expand electrical service that often exists already than it is to get permits, zoning, etc to bury tanks of toxic chemicals in the ground.

Gas isn't an inconvenience every day. Maybe 5-10 minutes once a week. That's with me driving 300+ miles a week. It would actually be more of an inconvenience to plug in and charge up every night.

That hasn't been my experience at all. I felt the same way that you do, and my mind has changed as I've lived with a PHEV for the last couple of years. Every time I stop for fuel now, it's a bit of a hassle compared to just plugging in nightly. I tolerate it, but it's just another task that requires me to carve out time from my normal daily stuff. Plugging in takes so little time and effort that there's no thought put into it any more. I'm already parked there. The charger is hanging 2 ft away. Takes 5 seconds if I'm moving slowly. No special trips, no swiping cards, no smelling like fuel afterwards. It just works.

Lots of people think they don't mind fueling, but after owning an EV or PHEV for awhile they realize they don't miss it at all. It's a bit of an unexpected change for most people but it's pretty common to hear people mention "not stopping for fuel" as a benefit of EV/PHEV ownership if you read reviews.

At least with an ICE I can carry along a couple of gas cans if I'm going into an area like that. With an EV I'd need a few gas cans, a generator, and a bunch of time for that generator to charge it back up. Whole lot quicker to wait for a gas can to drain, than to wait for a generator to charge up a battery.

EVs will probably never be perfect for all uses in all situations. We have accepted for a long time that various liquid fuels are beneficial for various purposes, and I expect "carbon neutral" transport options to be similar in the future. Batteries aren't the answer for everything. There are lots of big companies spending billions of dollars on alternatives for use cases that batteries struggle with. ICEs of various sorts are going to be with us for the foreseeable future.

 

[stmitch]

If EV's were so great people would adopt them much faster then they are and they wouldnt need mandates and tax breaks to sell.

Demand is not the bottle neck for EV adoption, it's production. They're selling every single EV they can make, and many have extensive waiting lists while selling for over MSRP. Tesla, Rivian, the Ford Lightning, etc have all seen pretty significant MSRP hikes in the last year and they continue to sell them as fast as they can make them. People aren't choosing to wait months or years for the opportunity to spend $40k-100k on a new EV because they don't want them, or because they needed to be prodded by a tax break. They're doing it because they find them highly desirable and think they'll fit the way that they live.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Demand is not the bottle neck for EV adoption, it's production. They're selling every single EV they can make, and many have extensive waiting lists while selling for over MSRP. Tesla, Rivian, the Ford Lightning, etc have all seen pretty significant MSRP hikes in the last year and they continue to sell them as fast as they can make them. People aren't choosing to wait months or years for the opportunity to spend $40k-100k on a new EV because they don't want them, or because they needed to be prodded by a tax break. They're doing it because they find them highly desirable and think they'll fit the way that they live.

Maybe....maybe not. But gas vehicles have production issues to and are still selling more then the EV's are.

 

[superj]

i still think electric vehicles are very cool and it will be awesome when they are set up to be able to be used as easily as gas or diesel powered vehicles, even on road trips. once we get to that point, i will be fine using them because by then, electricity generation will have improved and probably everything will be electric.

i would hope there is some clean easy way to get the electricity, some clean easy way that is dependable. not like the wind turbines here that put alot of people in jeopardy that winter, or solar that only works 10-12 hours a day on decent weather days. i like the nuclear idea but when one of those goes awry, it doesn't end well.

oh well, the future should be super cool. maybe we can be like the jetsons