8" SJ Coils and 6" SJ Brackets?

[legoms013]

So it looks like these coils might work with 4" drop brackets(2.5" lift Deaver superflex coils):
http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-13205-super-flex-coil-springs-2-.html

Other "Deaver Superflex" coils on the site say they are rated at 300-310 PPI, and this particular one is 20-20.5" long uncompressed. Can I adapt my current coil buckets to work with these or are EB buckets required? I would *assume* I also would need the coil retainer pad for the bottom (and drill out the center hole) and also the small bolt on metal strap to retain the coil at the top.

Whats the deal with linear vs progressive rate coils? Obviously there have got to be pro's and cons (which I can look up) but is one preferred here in the RBV community over another?

I also just read that an EB 3.5" lift coil will give around 6" lift on RBV TTB.
Thanks

 

[4x4junkie]

20.5" sounds like it would work to me, although might need a slight boost with a spacer (the next taller ones up might be too tall).
You should be able to adapt the stock buckets to work with a little bit of modification. You may have to trim that inner part of the top winding off an EB coil to fit it though.

Linear coils are best for flex. Progressive coils I think are better for high-speed use where some jumping might be encountered.

 

[ThatGuy]

How much lift are you wanting?
I can tell you I started with a JD 6" lift for the Ex with RBV coils that are 475 lbs/in. I then swapped to 3.5" EB coils that are 225lbs/in and are 23" static. Together with the lower retainers I made plus the EB coils I gained about 1" in the front. Their 5.5" coils are the same 23" static length but get the extra lift from being a 310lbs/in rate coil. I will be using the 5.5" EB coils when I put the 44 under it because it won't have the retainer and I'd like to get another inch of lift for the 39s.

As far as the buckets, you'll have to get EB buckets and put in unless you wait for Duff to release their Ranger buckets that accept EB coils.

Also, as Junkie stated get ready to work on your steering. He told me before and I didn't listen. I now have new steering. The heavy rate RBV coils mask the problem, the soft EB coils will allow it to come front and center. I will be undrivable until you get it fixed.

Click on my name and go through a few of my recent posts. I have covered everything you are seeking. I have many pictures included to show what I speak.

 

[legoms013]

Thanks "ThatGuy" and "4x4junkie" you guys are awesome. I was originally looking to run SJ 8" coils but am having second thoughts. I'm starting to like the idea of softer coils and keeping my current 4" drop brackets. Sounds like I should wait for Duff's EB/Ranger TTB buckets as that might be my best option.

I'm *hoping* with my extreme drop pitman arm and 4" bracketry my steering setup won't be too bad. My main reason for dropping the SJ 6" and 8" coils and going with less lift and softer coils if for the steering issues i've heard so much about.

All this talk makes me want to place a huge order for bronco/ranger parts...but I need to pace my "flexier" build up

Any word on who makes a good replacement leaf pack for the rear axle? Skyjacker? James Duff? I bet Deaver would do a custom one but would be ass expensive.

I'd love to see a writeup/buildup thread on your steering linkages ThatGuy. How much that cool setup cost ya if you don't mind me asking?

Someday this little truck o mine will get to play with the Jeep guys.....

 

[ThatGuy]

Deaver springs are sold by JD. All their EB, ranger, B2, and the new Ex springs are mfg. by Deaver. They have medium duty which to me is pretty soft. I stuff the 35s into the wheelwells on the Ex pretty easily.
I guess I can let the cat out of the bag on the steering. It's made by stonecrusher steering and will sell for about $300. The saddle is being redesigned to spread the load out along the drag link. That's the only tweak I've found so far.

 

[legoms013]

Are they producing a kit for mass sales? Or are they just keeping the design on file so if someone asks for a oh I don't know what you would call it, a heim y-link steering setup for a Ranger TTB they can just take down your measurements and send the parts?

Cuz I'm interested! Not for right now, but if it functions as well as you say it does, I'm putting it on my list of things to do.

What was your (ThatGuy) consensus on James Duff TTB progressive lift coils? I'm wondering if the progressiveness of them is a good thing or if its better to go with a linear rate coil (such as Skyjackers or Deaver EB coils).

What I'm trying to accomplish is a *better* ride quality on road, and *better* suspension travel offroad. With my current Tuff country coils, i can stuff a tire, but only if the opposite tire on the rear axle is stuffed aswell. And they ride like crap on the highway.

Are EB coils not a good idea for a vehicle that is a DD?

 

[ThatGuy]

Anthony (stonecrusher) is going to market his TTB steering system. I produced it to JD to see if they would offer it but got shot down because of the heim only status. They promote stonecrusher to a lot of their customers doing one-ton swaps and such on EBs so I thought it may work out to where they would promote it for the RBVs as well. I dunno how it will all work out right now as I've only had the system for a couple of weeks now. Anthony's shop is only about 20-25 mins from JDs shop.
As far as the RBV coils--I really liked them on road and I mean REALLY! The Ex road like a caddy, soaking up even the biggest bumps like they were nothing. Off-road they were ok but nothing like the EB coils I have now. The progressive coils control up-travel a lot better and I think flex well also. I can't really comment on the EB coils right now as they were just a test and not the best choice at first. What I mean by that is I have a 23" coil compacted to 15"-16" so I have most of the windings compressed. On a big bump I can bottom the soft 225lbs/in coil out where as the RBV coil never came close. Body roll is another thing to consider, the RBV coil handled fine even with no sway bar, the EB coil however will make you pucker if you go into a sharp curve a little too fast. I will have a better idea when we do my SAS and I go to the 310lbs/in 5.5" EB coil.
The rear Deaver springs are very nice in my opinion, soft enough to flex well but the ride is excellent. I had a cherokee before with the Rusty's 6" lift and it rode like a log truck not to mention the rear was prolly 2" higher than the front. I rode for a month with concrete blocks in the rear to try to break them in faster. Not so with the Deaver springs, plus with the military wrap combined with keeping them spring under, gives no spring wrap even with the spool and 35s.
The EB coils would be a good idea for a best of both worlds approach IF a) you get your steering in check b) you run a coil in the 280-320lbs/in range c) get the right height and d)come up with a good mounting system top and bottom.

Of course you're getting all this info from a relative new comer to the world of RBVs. I'm just a lil' ol' redneck in Tennessee who will soon be daily driving an Explorer running full width axles and 39" Iroks.

 

[legoms013]

Now that I think about it, somewhere I might have read that heims may be illegal here in CA for steering components, which would throw out my whole idea of using that setup from stonecrusher, unless i made my truck a offroad only vehicle (eh not going to, i want people to see what i drive on a daily basis )

Yes but as a relative newcomer you have come farther along than alot of other people in terms of actual experience. Thats what i like to hear, not just people making things up and or filling in the blanks with what they think might be best. Experience beats theoretical hands down in my mind. 4x4 Junkie is this way as well, it seems most of what he knows is from experience or from seeing someone else do something.

Here are my options:

Option a)
Go with SJ 6" drop brackets and 8" lift coils like I originally intended. Pros: Tall, semi-ok ride and flex, streetable.
Cons: expensive, tie rod angles jacked, and flex is not what it could be.

Option b) SJ 6" drop brackets and JD 5.5" lift coils for TTB:
Pros: not as tall, ok ride, moderate flex, tie rod angels just about flat, very streetable.
Cons: Stiff TTB ride, progressive "light" windings may be bottomed out with my setup (nose heavy winch bumper and winch) could cause them to sag out possibly. Cost is similar to option a

Option c) Keep current tuff country brackets. Get 2.5 superflex deaver EB coils (300PP). Pros: Better on road ride, better off road flex. Original lift hight retained. Possibly could be cheaper than options a & b, but most likely about the same.
Cons: requires extra attention to steering issues. not just bolt in, requires some coil bucket mods, and special parts to retain coil on bottom side. Could require dual shocks to control soft coils.

 

[ThatGuy]

One other thing, if you think the winch and bumper will compress the stiff RBV coils, they're gonna mash the crap outta the softer EB coils. Be sure to take that into account. For this reason I'd suggest the linear coils over the progressive.
option c is my vote. Just be sure to do plenty of research before buying anything.

 

[4x4junkie]

Are you planning on actually wheeling this thing pretty hard? I ask because I don't really see the point of using the EB coils with the TC brackets, they won't hold up long-term to the uses that would require you to have the EB coils in the 1st place (rockcrawling primarily). This is of course unless you plan on reinforcing the brackets...
If not, I'd say keep the TC brackets and just drop a set of SJ 6" RBV coils in it (and the #FA600 drop arm) and be done with it.

I'm not aware of any laws specifically addressing the use of rod-ends on the steering in CA (couldn't find anything on the DMV website either).

 

[dzrtrnr]

I have been reading on these forums alot the last few months as I am starting a 1993 Explorer "trail rig" project. I like the idea of the James Duff kit and am leaning that way.
I am unsure of the best way to modify the steering for this kit. Is there a down side to using heims for the steering as Stonecrusher has? And will this steering system work good on a street driven Explorer?

 

[legoms013]

Eventually yes, but not with out beefing up the TC brackets beforehand (ive seen the pictures of where the most commonly fail here on TRS). Or I'll go to SJ brackets.

I have lockers front and rear, so suspension travel doesn't come into play as much as if I didnt have them like it used to. Its mostly a *want* at this point. So glad to have got rid of the 2 wheel peel...and will never go back

As far as hiems, i cant find anything about them being illegal, but i read it somewhere once so i will continue to search and find out if they are or arent.

So, *maybe* my truck being the 4.0L extra cab variant, with a heavy nose, Skyjacker coils will provide for sufficient flex on the front axle. I guess there is only one way to find out huh? Keep it simple stupid I and that way there is less headache. And if it doesn't...i'll gear up for EB coil swap and associated mods.

dzrtrn start here:

http://therangerstation.com/Magazine/winter2008/steering_tech.htm

Depending on what you end up with, you may have to do different things for different amounts of lift. With a moderate lift (2.5-4) a regular drop pitman arm will suffice. From about 4-6 a Skyjacker *extreme* drop pitman arm works well, or a modified Superlift Superrunner steering setup. Anything about 6" things get hairy and the excessive tie rod angles cause ungodly amounts of bumpsteer.

If I were you I'd get James Duffs stage 5.5" stage 3 kit and use their pitman arm, and if the bumpsteer is unacceptable then get a Skyjacker extreme drop pitman arm. Or if you have the money get a Superlift Superrunner kit and modify the center "K" center link down about 2". See above article for that.

I want to stress to you that what you are trying to achieve is flat or almost flat steering linkages. If they aren't as the axle beams move thru their cycle it pushes and pulls weird on the tierod and draglink because they aren't following the same arc, producing bumpsteer.

I speak from experience when I say there will be bumpsteer with a regular drop pitman arm and around 5-6" lift. For a few months I had this setup and the bumpsteer was pretty bad...Ill try and find a picture of how steep the angles were on my draglink and tie rod. Then i swapped in a SJ FA600 extreme drop pitman arm and the linkages are almost flat. There is alot less bumpsteer now, and the truck drives much better because of it. Here is a picture of my truck with 5.5" of lift and a regular drop pitman arm (that wasn't quite cuttin' it). Bumpsteer was bad.

Here is a pic with the larger drop pitman arm installed. Notice the linkages are *closer* to flat:

Check out my build its all simple bolt on stuff maybe some of it will help with what you are trying to do. Feel free to ask questions:
http://therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75235

 

[ThatGuy]

Dzrtrnr:
If you stick with just the standard stage 3 lift it will work well out of the box. Where I ran into issues was when I changed to EB coils. Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting optimal steering but the standard drop pitman arm worked well for me.
As far as the stonecrusher steering, I drive my Ex every day and it works well. The only issue with heims would be if you have an inspection or it is illegal to run heim steering in your state. I know people here that drive full hydro on road so Tennessee might not be the best place to test this. It works and it works well is all I can say.

 

[legoms013]

Do James Duff's coil buckets seat the coil up higher than the stock ones?

 

[ThatGuy]

I'm at work now so its impossible for me to do links and pics from my phone but look at my post "swap to EB coils" and you can see the pics. Their buckets keep the springs at factory height. Next time I talk to Suzy I'm going to let her know that the buckets need to go into production.
Maybe they can do a disclaimer that EB coils shouldn't be run on TTB or at your own risk etc.