2.8 or 2.9 performance??

[AllanD]

a Century ago some technical geek was trying to explain to Otto Von Bismark the finer points of battleship design, armor versus Armament vs speed.

Otto, a wise and intelligent man stopped him and said (translated from German):
The FIRST thing a warship must do is FLOAT, the second thing it must do is FLOAT AND the third thing it must do is Float!

The implication being anything ELSE it did was of fourth order in importance because if it dodn't do the first three things what good was it.

HERE we are always talking about a TRUCK, all-be-it a small truck but a truck, you expect it to do light duty truck type things.

so installing an engine that's gotta scream like a motorcycle engine to make peak torque
(Let alone peak horsepower!, like say... a 24valve SHO V6?) isn't gonna do it.

Going to Morena and spending as much as a built 5.0 for a KIT to add half a liter to a 4.0...
what makes anyone think that's practical?

I tend to be very goal oriented, I never forget the PURPOSE, the END GOAL of what I'm doing. Nor do I EVER forget to follow the path of least resistance while getting there.

This doesn't mean that I do things the easy/cheap way because I understand that doing SOME things the very best way I can think up sves me from doing something OVER AGAIN.
and doing things OVER ALWAYS takes more time and money than doing it right the first time...

But starting a project with false ideas or false data will cause you to fall
short of your goals.

Does it EVER occour to anyone that the reason 4.0 and 5.0 swaps are
so popular is because they WORK?

That there is NO "snake oil" being sold, that you KNOW exactly what you
are going to get when you are gonna get well before you even start, there's no mystery!

Doing something for the sake of being different is the mechanical
equivelent of "Hey, Y'all ain't doin it right", and is based on the
rediculous idea that everyone who tried the same thing that DIDN'T
WORK the last 4,217 times is gonna work differently because YOU
are doing it...

Funny, people who want 225hp in a 1998-up Ranger who swap in an Explorer/Mountineer engine GET 225hp every damned time.... funny how that works out...

My comments in the past about the 5.0 is that they won't necissarily GET that HP
(or the torque they really want, but don;t realize that it is TORQUE they are after)
WHERE in the RPM band that they really want to use it.... but such is life...

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[10strokin]

Looks like I found where the Troglodytes hang, Thanks for the help guys!

 

[AllanD]

Looks like I found where the Troglodytes hang, Thanks for the help guys!

Troglodytes, No... I don't live underground.

I'm a gear-head.

I am an "Engineer" by any rational definition

"Rational" means actual knowledge and experience...
not because I hold some piece of paper that proves only that I can hold my liquor in the frat house and spit back the mental pablum from some outdated textbook spewed at me by some teacher/professor (over-educated jackass) that fits the definition of "Those that can't do Teach".

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[10strokin]

Well I dont want to break up the Mensa Convention you have going on in your head, But its past time for your Meds....
Seriously where did all this name calling, (stupid) matriculate from? I asked a simple question on here about 2.8 and 2.9 engines, NOT 4.0 or 5.0. If i wanted info on those engines, I WOULD HAVE PUT IT IN THE ENGINE SWAP FORUM! When you can show me a 4.0 with a distributor and a carburetor, THEN and only then will I be thinking of installing one in my truck.
Your statement of 2.8 and 2.9 engines and performance being an oxymoron is all relative. ANY engine can be built to perform depending on what u want to spend. NOWHERE in this thread did i say I wanted a fire breathing 5.0, My fox body Capri I race at Gainesville has that. I want something DIFFERENT. According to you that makes me stupid. I'll consider the source on that one. Now go back to your warm bathtub and continue biting the fartbubbles you produce with that grin on your face...

 

[Snoranger]

Well I dont want to break up the Mensa Convention you have going on in your head, But its past time for your Meds....
Seriously where did all this name calling, (stupid) matriculate from? I asked a simple question on here about 2.8 and 2.9 engines, NOT 4.0 or 5.0. If i wanted info on those engines, I WOULD HAVE PUT IT IN THE ENGINE SWAP FORUM! When you can show me a 4.0 with a distributor and a carburetor, THEN and only then will I be thinking of installing one in my truck.
Your statement of 2.8 and 2.9 engines and performance being an oxymoron is all relative. ANY engine can be built to perform depending on what u want to spend. NOWHERE in this thread did i say I wanted a fire breathing 5.0, My fox body Capri I race at Gainesville has that. I want something DIFFERENT. According to you that makes me stupid. I'll consider the source on that one. Now go back to your warm bathtub and continue biting the fartbubbles you produce with that grin on your face...

Here you go:

http://www.moranav6racing.com/category.html?CategoryID=32

 

[dangerranger83]

Theres no info being given because what you want to do to them isn't worth doing to them in a truck. What you are asking to do with the engines is see in cars as seen by some examples already. So if you want info on what to do to the engines like what you are asking, go to those forums and ask them. You did ask about the engines to us and got the answer from what others have and do to them else where, but not what is being done to them here. We told you what the practicle thing to do is and what we do here when we want more from our RBVs. Everytime I see somebody say they are going to do such a thing to an engine here, we never hear anymore from them after that.

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[10strokin]

Calling someone Stupid because they think outside the box is a GUARANTEE you wont here from them again! Basically what you guys are inferring is that people like Sven Pruett, and Pat Kunz are Stupid because they wanted to DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT by advancing the small V6 cause, trying new things, seeing what works and what doesnt, coming up with excellent results. But because they didnt subscribe to the "bigger is better" mentality that emanates here on this forum, They are "stupid".

OK, I will stick to the Tech library on here, and my own trial and error with the Squires turbo system I am fabricating for my truck. I have no need for the close minded ignorance/arrogance from the keyboard warriors here. If i want that again, I will join a NASCAR chatroom. Cheers all!

 

[James86]

....Thus, another "PUT IN A 4.0/5.0 UNLESS YOU'RE RETARDED" thread flares and dies...

Honestly, I'm curious what he was doing with this project of his, since we've already got SBC threads and I'm following someone's 4.3 Vortec thread. If its some slammed racy truck that'll never haul a load again and its going to be buzzing along freeways at higher speeds, then maybe what he was trying to do would've fit his application better but we'll never know now I guess...

 

[dangerranger83]

If they decided to not want to do what they had in mind because of what had been said then either they have come to terms of practicality of their ability to do something and won't go out and prove others wrong and go and do it. I never said not to do it, I said its something that I wouldn't do and showed what others do to most of us have a tight budget and build around that.

If he did decided to build up a 2.9 and post it here on TRS yes I would watch it and so would alot of other people.

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[Snoranger]

Calling someone Stupid because they think outside the box is a GUARANTEE you wont here from them again! Basically what you guys are inferring is that people like Sven Pruett, and Pat Kunz are Stupid because they wanted to DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT by advancing the small V6 cause, trying new things, seeing what works and what doesnt, coming up with excellent results. But because they didnt subscribe to the "bigger is better" mentality that emanates here on this forum, They are "stupid".

OK, I will stick to the Tech library on here, and my own trial and error with the Squires turbo system I am fabricating for my truck. I have no need for the close minded ignorance/arrogance from the keyboard warriors here. If i want that again, I will join a NASCAR chatroom. Cheers all!

I'm all for doing something different, (I'm swapping a Cummins into my Ex.)But I do agree a 4.0l swap makes a lot of sense. I even gave you a link to a carb adapter for it, thats what you asked for.

If you want to stick with the smaller engines, at least find a set of Cosworth DOHC 2.9l heads and start with something better. The blocks are basically the same, so the heads should just bolt on.

 

[drgrcr]

10strokin I too am in the process of building a warmed over 2.8, I am mostly going for improved fuel economy and more low speed torque. I will continue to post the progress on here as I go. At the moment I am looking for a set of heads that aren't cracked. I may have to pull several sets to find them but I will.

I am 58 years old. I have been involved in the automotive business since I was a small boy on my dads farm. 31 years in the automotive testing business. In that time I had the opportunity to work with lots of engineers, the last 14 years I was there I even had the title as a engineer tech. In all of those years I could count on one hand people that I would truly consider engineers.

I am building a 2.8 not because everybody says they are a useless engine I am building because I am curious. The mods I have done to already have improved the fuel economy 5 mpg and the engine has a severe case of mileosis.

I have certainly done my fair share of engine swaps, engine rebuilds....If I wanted too I could put a turbocharged Subaru engine in my Ranger, I have the resources and the ability. But I am going to build and modify the 2.8 because I want too. I am not building a boat, I am building a small pick up truck to run around town picking up parts, I want it to get 20 + mpg around town with the AC and the radio on, and a road trip once in awhile.

And like everybody else, I am just expressing an opinion and as everybody knows....opinion are like rear ends, everybody has one and most of them stink.

 

[AllanD]

Calling someone Stupid because they think outside the box is a GUARANTEE you wont here from them again! Basically what you guys are inferring is that people like Sven Pruett, and Pat Kunz are Stupid because they wanted to DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT by advancing the small V6 cause, trying new things, seeing what works and what doesnt, coming up with excellent results. But because they didnt subscribe to the "bigger is better" mentality that emanates here on this forum, They are "stupid".

OK, I will stick to the Tech library on here, and my own trial and error with the Squires turbo system I am fabricating for my truck. I have no need for the close minded ignorance/arrogance from the keyboard warriors here. If i want that again, I will join a NASCAR chatroom. Cheers all!

Thinking outside the box is fine, what is being done here is thinking ouside reality.

Because someone wants to do something and succede doesn't make their actions or the end result "practical".

As for your belated mention of a TURBO, that is additional information that you did not provide up front so I regard this addition as backpedal-by-addition.

MY Job title here is "Tech Advisor", And that isn't a lightweight title here at TRS.

MY Job here is to provide technical information. Technical information is about TRUTH and Truth is not open to debate, it simply "is"

No, not "Truth as I see it", simply "Truth"

IF you take an engine that produces it's torque at a barely acceptable rpm
(like a 2.8)
and re-engineer it to spin faster you will DECREASE the torque at lower rpm
in favor of torque at higher rpm (this is a typical power increase)

What you lose is "Driveability"

THIS is REALITY.

You simply cannot do with a 2.8 or 2.9 what you can do with a 4.0 or 5.0

Remember the old saying "There is no replacement for displacement"?

and to the people who suggest "Turbo" or "blower" I'll ask won't that blower work even better on a bigger engine?

So how much effort do you want to expend trying to do an "End around" on reality?

If you don't like my explaining reality to you because it chaffes your ego, have a nice life, you won't be missed here at TRS.

If you want to aquire a clue and mabey actually learn from people who DO things rather than imagine/BS them stick around

Because TRS is a No Bullsh!t zone

 

[dangerranger83]

Well said AllanD.

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[Insanejughead]

I'm actually disappointed with the outcome of this thread. I started following it to see how people helped 10Strokin find the answers to his questions, but instead found a steadily increasing mentality that was, in effect, badgering him to go with what already works.

10Strokin, I would love to hear about what you do with either one of those motors.

AllanD, sure, the larger engines work better for all purposes, but that doesn't answer for 10Strokin's nostalgia towards the smaller v6s. You have pushed your reasons well, but after he stated that the question is only towards the 2.8 or 2.9, you persisted.


Take a step back and see if that seems childish.

You as a Tech Advisor: Yes.
But, as Project Manager: No.

DangerRanger, I agree with the power and usefulness of the larger engines, too; but did you not see that 10Strokin was not concerned with them in the least bit? That's a rhetorical question, because I think this thread should be closed/deleted now.

 

[10strokin]

WOW!! drcrgr and Insanejughead actually put together logical posts!! Maybe we should keep this thread going after all...I CAN CARE LESS about 4.0 and 5.0. AS I STATED EARLIER, if i wanted to know about an engine swap, I WOULD HAVE POSTED THIS THREAD IN THAT SECTION! What is the title of this thread, 2.8 or 2.9 performance, NOT 4.0 OR 5.0 SWAPS!!! How this simple fact doesnt register in a so called "Approved Tech Advisors" head is beyond my scope of imagination. The NO BULLSHIT zone is comical at best, Indefensible at worst there AllanD. Snoranger, look twice at the pic u sent, it is from the "stupid" Morana Racing Website! I wonder how that would fit under the hood of anything!? I DID NOT however see a DISTRIBUTOR like i asked because THERE IS NOWHERE TO PUT ONE! When i want to spend 1000 dollars on a stand alone ignition system for a 4.0, I will pull out my AR15 and end my misery. Why I would have to defend myself on a site like this is reprehensible when I asked a simple question that NO ONE has answered yet.
Drgrcr, i would like to follow your thread, where can I find it? TO ALL: My truck is my daily driver, I cannot afford Nor do I have the time to take it off the road for weeks at a time trying to figure out electrical nightmares and bullshit with engine swaps. THIS IS WHY I AM STICKING TO 2.8 OR 2.9 ENGINES. A turbo with the correct cam, (slightly bigger than stock) will transform pulling power WITHOUT going nuts. My truck is a 4X4, so whoever asked if it was going to be a slammed racy truck which will never haul a load again can bite my nads. I can rebuild an engine practically in my sleep, Being in a tank command unit in the Army field stripping an M1 power unit and installing a new one in less than 3 hours running is great teaching. TRY THAT SOMETIME THERE AllanD. So engine building is NOT A PROBLEM. What i ORIGINALLY asked here was for performance tips and tricks for 2.8 AND 2.9 engines. If anyone can put together a rational thought on THIS QUESTION ALONE, I welcome it.