1989 2.9 Automatic, A/C delete?

[alwaysFlOoReD]

It's too bad there isn't a simple way for the enthusiast to reclaim coolant at home.

 

[lowspeedpursuit]

It's too bad there isn't a simple way for the enthusiast to reclaim coolant at home.

I've thought about this a lot, since I have to empty a full system with a seized compressor at some point this summer.

EPA 609 (automotive) says your recover/recycle equipment needs to pull 95% of the refrigerant, but I don't see if you're formally required to use a recover/recycle machine, rather than trying to do it manually. EPA 608 for small appliances says you need to pull 80% with a bad compressor.

For my Ranger's charge of 22oz, call it 18-21oz you're supposed to recover. It's been a long time and I couldn't find the page now, but I've seen people talk about vacuuming a recovery cylinder as low as you can, dunking it into ice water, hooking it up, letting it pull as much as it'll pull, and calling it a day.

I guess if someone did that and measured the weight increase, that would tell us if the method comes anywhere close to meeting the legal requirements.

I've also seen sketchier people talk about just using an empty propane tank instead of a recovery cylinder. That's absolutely not legally compliant, and I've seen other folks say it will definitely explode and kill a busload of nuns, but I feel like for the small figures involved with emptying one vehicle, it might technically work.

 

[RonD]

The reason refrigerant comes in pressurized cans or is under pressure in an AC system is because it will "boil" away at our 15psi sea level pressure
If you open any AC system, so 0psi internal pressure then it all just evaporates and pollutes the air

 

[Josh B]

You might dig around scrap metal forum and see if anything there about it.
There used to be some fellas there who claimed to be making money collecting that stuff.
I expect unless they really did well it won't help much but good luck anyway, as I stated earlier it's been slowing me down a bit.
I even asked my cousin who has his own shop at home and works full time at a Ford dealership if he had access to one and he didn't

 

[lowspeedpursuit]

Since this thread is about an '89, it's worth specifying that actual Freon (R12) is relatively valuable, since it's been banned to make or import for decades. When I told the guys at the local A/C wholesale shop I was thinking of buying a recovery cylinder soon, they were very clear that they would pay some absurd sum of money for any R12 you brought in.

Question is, how many airtight, unconverted R12 systems are actually still driving around out there to be recovered? Except for the one compressor I mentioned before--which is in an '02 and well post-dates R12--every system I've ever worked on has been completely empty, having leaked down to nothing.

 

[RobbieD]

I didn't realize that there was a market for scavenged R-12, but it would make sense.

It looks like this system has been converted from R-12 to R-134a.

The original Nippondenso compressor has been replaced by a Sanden (typical aftermarket), and worm clamps on the compressor lines are another tell.

On the accumulator/drier, an adapter fitting is screwed onto the low pressure service port.

All of the other components look to be factory-installed AC, and not dealer-installed or aftermarket.

 

[Josh B]

It's been 6 or 8 years since I went there much so it may have changed.
I still go there occasionally to get updated scrap computer parts prices, maybe ever year or two

 

[eightynine4x4]

I didn't realize that there was a market for scavenged R-12, but it would make sense.

It looks like this system has been converted from R-12 to R-134a.

The original Nippondenso compressor has been replaced by a Sanden (typical aftermarket), and worm clamps on the compressor lines are another tell.

On the accumulator/drier, an adapter fitting is screwed onto the low pressure service port.

All of the other components look to be factory-installed AC, and not dealer-installed or aftermarket.

So if my system is fact an updated R-134a instead of R-12, what changes for my situation? Is it less toxic and also less terrible to let out into the atmosphere?

If my accumulator dryer has an adapter on it, is there a schrader under it and do I need to remove said adapter to gain access to the schrader in order to press to see if I have pressure/charge? (And what’s the adapter for?)
Or can I maybe open up one of the compressor’s two connections and test a schrader valve there?

 

[RobbieD]

So if my system is fact an updated R-134a instead of R-12, what changes for my situation? Is it less toxic and also less terrible to let out into the atmosphere?

I honestly don't know. But, to take a stab at it, R-134a has to be less harmful than R-12, or it wouldn't have replaced it. "Less harmful" is still not "good for the environment", so me personally, I would make an attempt (and pay) to get an R-134a charge recovered properly.

I've always heard that every time you vent refrigerant, a puppy dies (or maybe I've got that confused with something else . . . memory's getting kinda crusty).

If my accumulator dryer has an adapter on it, is there a schrader under it and do I need to remove said adapter to gain access to the schrader in order to press to see if I have pressure/charge? (And what’s the adapter for?)
Or can I maybe open up one of the compressor’s two connections and test a schrader valve there?

Yes, and yes.

Originally the accumulator drier had a low side service port, with a Schrader, and the adapter was screwed onto the port. The adapter matches the service hoses used with R-134a, and it should have it's own check valve, but I can't remember if it's a proper Schrader-type valve.

It looks, to me, that under the caps on the compressor's manifolds (i.e.- fittings) there's likely standard Schrader-type service ports for the high and low sides. The high side should actually (and on the original compressor it did) have a safety overpressure relief valve.

Once you find a service port Schrader valve, all it takes is a quick press and release of pin to check if the system still has a charge.

If you find a competent shop or garage that does AC before you take anything apart, they may be able to tell for sure if it's been converted. Sometimes (rarely) there'll be a sticker noting a conversion.

 

[eightynine4x4]

I honestly don't know. But, to take a stab at it, R-134a has to be less harmful than R-12, or it wouldn't have replaced it. "Less harmful" is still not "good for the environment", so me personally, I would make an attempt (and pay) to get an R-134a charge recovered properly.

I've always heard that every time you vent refrigerant, a puppy dies (or maybe I've got that confused with something else . . . memory's getting kinda crusty).



Yes, and yes.

Originally the accumulator drier had a low side service port, with a Schrader, and the adapter was screwed onto the port. The adapter matches the service hoses used with R-134a, and it should have it's own check valve, but I can't remember if it's a proper Schrader-type valve.

It looks, to me, that under the caps on the compressor's manifolds (i.e.- fittings) there's likely standard Schrader-type service ports for the high and low sides. The high side should actually (and on the original compressor it did) have a safety overpressure relief valve.

Once you find a service port Schrader valve, all it takes is a quick press and release of pin to check if the system still has a charge.

If you find a competent shop or garage that does AC before you take anything apart, they may be able to tell for sure if it's been converted. Sometimes (rarely) there'll be a sticker noting a conversion.

Ok got it.
And IF my system is already depressurized by way of time and leaky gaskets or something, I should be expecting to handle a remaining liquid of some sort, probably a bunch of it. And it will pour out of all segments of the AC system? I’ll just be ready with a bucket and go one section at a time, and will store it for proper toxic waste disposal.

 

[RobbieD]

If the refrigerant charge has leaked out (no pressure) all that you should have in the system is oil. The original factory oil charge was 10 oz., and basically the oil will be throughout the system. The compressor and accumulator drier usually have the most oil, but as any component is removed you'll get some oil running or dripping out. Freon will "cook off" or evaporate as a gas, except when a system is suddenly opened; this is like an explosive release, and the Freon will flash freeze flesh, and it's especially bad in the eyes.

 

[eightynine4x4]

If the refrigerant charge has leaked out (no pressure) all that you should have in the system is oil. The original factory oil charge was 10 oz., and basically the oil will be throughout the system. The compressor and accumulator drier usually have the most oil, but as any component is removed you'll get some oil running or dripping out. Freon will "cook off" or evaporate as a gas, except when a system is suddenly opened; this is like an explosive release, and the Freon will flash freeze flesh, and it's especially bad in the eyes.

Well the verdict is:
No charge. Carefully equipped with protection and with towels laying over engine, I probed all 3 schrader ports. Absolutely zero activity, not even the faintest bit of oil or fluid or anything. Bone dry, all 3 of them.
So I guess it’s safe to start opening up and removing.

I actually have a real shop manual arriving later today so might be able to find this answer in there.. but what are the air “entry” points into the air system that this ja all part of? I’m looking to DIY some kind of cabin air filtration step. My lungs and throat get a little irritated feeling after driving for a couple hours. Sometimes I think it’s maybe the (new) heater core drying up the cabin air but it seems like it’s more than just that. I have a very minor exhaust leak by cats and now have the new manifold and Ypipe to replace all that too so that will no longer be an issue if that’s an issue in cab. But I’d like to still consider the possibility that air from the engine is harsh and unhealthy and would like to come up with a way to filter it DIY.

I understand now that there is a blend door for mixing between hot or cold air, which I assume has a hard lever connection to the temp slider knob on the controls in cab. And I assume that after that blend door is the fan itself, which pulls the blended combo into the ducts system and pushes it out the vents.

So the cold air is in its own sub-compartment with the evaporater, and the hot air is in its own sub-compartment with its heater core. But is there some kind of opening on the opposite side of each core that lets in engine bay air which then gets pulled through each hot/cold core? If so, maybe I can filter those air entry points for each core box..

 

[Josh B]

Isn't it right under the windshield, above the hood?

 

[RobbieD]

No charge. Carefully equipped with protection and with towels laying over engine, I probed all 3 schrader ports. Absolutely zero activity, not even the faintest bit of oil or fluid or anything. Bone dry, all 3 of them.
So I guess it’s safe to start opening up and removing.

Good. That's one less (big) complication. The compressor is a good place to start your component removal. Slowly loosen the the flair fitting nuts on the two manifold fittings until you can wiggle them; no Freon discharge will confirm that it's empty. Easy to retighten if you do get pressure discharge (again, go slow). I think that these will be flair fittings versus o-rings on the compressor.

Isn't it right under the windshield, above the hood?

Yes; air intake is through the cowl slots and routed around the passenger side to the recirculating door up behind he kick panel.

I actually have a real shop manual arriving later today so might be able to find this answer in there.. but what are the air “entry” points into the air system that this ja all part of?

That's a WINNER! I hope that you're getting the blue-cover, two book Ford "1989 Truck Shop Manual, Compact Truck" set. If so, you'll have all of the information that you need at your fingertips, and it's the single best investment that you'll make on your truck. Even on CD, you want this version manual.

I understand now that there is a blend door for mixing between hot or cold air, which I assume has a hard lever connection to the temp slider knob on the controls in cab.

That varies by year. On an '89 the blend door is cable operated on the control head, through a cam.

Once you have the real shop manual, you'll have an incredible amount of information, which should answer just about any questions that you have. Good move.

I'm intrigued by your wanting to add filtration to venting system. I hope that you pull this off, and I'd like see what you come up with.

>>> I recommend that you get images of everything before and during your taking things off, in case later you want to restore the AC system. Keep and store everything removed, if you can.

Good luck!

 

[eightynine4x4]

Good. That's one less (big) complication. The compressor is a good place to start your component removal. Slowly loosen the the flair fitting nuts on the two manifold fittings until you can wiggle them; no Freon discharge will confirm that it's empty. Easy to retighten if you do get pressure discharge (again, go slow). I think that these will be flair fittings versus o-rings on the compressor.



Yes; air intake is through the cowl slots and routed around the passenger side to the recirculating door up behind he kick panel.



That's a WINNER! I hope that you're getting the blue-cover, two book Ford "1989 Truck Shop Manual, Compact Truck" set. If so, you'll have all of the information that you need at your fingertips, and it's the single best investment that you'll make on your truck. Even on CD, you want this version manual.



That varies by year. On an '89 the blend door is cable operated on the control head, through a cam.

Once you have the real shop manual, you'll have an incredible amount of information, which should answer just about any questions that you have. Good move.

I'm intrigued by your wanting to add filtration to venting system. I hope that you pull this off, and I'd like see what you come up with.

>>> I recommend that you get images of everything before and during your taking things off, in case later you want to restore the AC system. Keep and store everything removed, if you can.

Good luck!

Ok thank you! So I did test those two schraders on top of compressor and got no action. But you’re saying that even so, I still may have some pressure inside those hoses? Regardless I’ll be careful every step of the way.

Yep got the shop manuals pictured below, as well as the vacuum / electrical diagnostic manual. I want to go through both those aspects and make sure all is well. I may spring for the full wiring diagram book as well, but I’m not sure that has anything more than what’s already in the tech section here on TRS.

Yep, will be photographing and documenting AC setup before taking apart.

Sounds like I’d have to open up the dashboard to develop some kind of air filtration. I am fine with this since I’m interested in painting the whole dash anyways. So maybe I’ll do the filter project when I paint the truck in a couple months..