trying to figure out the right clutch

[MasonMGM]

Hello, I am new here, but there are a few questions I’ve had and no one to really ask them to so I figured I’d try this out. I have a solid axle swap 2002 ranger and I have gone through the second clutch since November. In November, I manual swapped it when it still had IFS. It got everything brand new besides the flywheel. I just had it resurfaced and when it went out in April, I figured that was the problem because they didn’t send me any shims after they machined it. In April I did the solid axle swap, and is when I pulled the transmission and swapped out the clutch. This time it got everything brand new with flywheel. upon taking the other one out and inspecting it, the clutch looks fine. Nothing looks to be out of order. There’s still plenty of clutch material and nothing looks wrong with the pressure plate, but when the clutch was pressed all the way in there was a clicking kind of noise coming from the transmission and the engagement of the clutch had changed from sort of midway through the pedal to almost all the way at the top. after replacing the clutch during the solid axle swap I haven’t had any issues until about a month ago. I shifted into third and it felt like I had no more clutch, but after pumping it up, it came back, which made me assume there was just a bubble or air pocket in the master. I didn’t have any problems with it up until this last week where I went on a 3 Hour drive and it started to cut out like it did a month ago. but again, I was able to pump it up and it came back until we were half an hour into hour 4 Hour drive home. It felt like the clutch gave out again but this time I was not able to pump it back up the return felt weak, there was sponginess at the bottom of the pedal and it is doing the same thing as it did before replacing it during the solid axle . The clutch is engaging all the way at the top of the pedal. There is the clicking noise with the clutch pushed all the way in. This led me to pull the transmission, replace the slave cylinder without taking off the clutch. I looked at the clutch, and it appeared to be fine. So I thought it wasn’t the problem and I assumed I replaced the clutch for no reason the last time and it was just the hydraulics. After installing the transmission again with brand new slave cylinder, and also replacing the master cylinder with a pre-bled master, and after bleeding the slave cylinder, it still feels the same as it did before I pulled the transmission. After that discovery, I have since pulled the transmission again with the thought that it can only be the clutch.

I am on here because I am trying to maybe get some help picking the right clutch since the OEM replacement LUK clutches I used both times have not been working for me. I will say I do not necessarily drive the truck conservatively, I do 4x4 it on trails often and it is quite a bit heavier than it was stock. I was wondering if something like a stage one clutch would be a better option for me. I have been looking at the South Bend heavy duty stage one clutch. I looked at the center force clutches as well, but I am having a hard time going that direction because I have read that they just paint a LUK pressure plate orange and just have a different style clutch disc. And I think it is the pressure plate that I am having problems with.

I know this is a very random issue and I have not heard of anybody having a similar one, but if anyone has any insight, it would be very appreciated.
Thank you

 

[scotts90ranger]

I've been running a centerforce clutch in my '90 for many years and it's been great, it's the one with weights on the pressure plate... but I don't have the bigger 4L clutch so my part numbers wouldn't help you...

That said I don't think the clutch is your problem, it sounds more like hydraulics. When you did the manual swap did you get a new separator plate between the engine and transmission? I don't know why Ford uses those dumb things but they do and they're important... The clutch should engage/disengage about an inch from fully released, IE right at the top, it "should" do that for the complete life of the clutch or that's been my experience over the last 25 years...

Just to confirm you're having troubles with the clutch engaging or disengaging?

Small air bubbles in the master cylinder make the clutch work bad, as the fluid expands with temp I imagine that would change where the bubbles get.

The dumbest thing I know of that could maybe have a minor chance of helping is pedal to the floor not running or in neutral and slipping your foot off the pedal like 3 times or more. This sometimes pulls fluid past the bubbles in the master cylinder.

 

[bobbywalter]

it does sound like an air issue in the hydraulics.

did you add headers or redo the exhaust?

i am not hearing that you are driving through the clutch...i am hearing you are having problems disengaging the clutch. if there is a heat issue from the exhaust or from the clutch slipping under load i lose pedal control....



the noise though... it could indicate pressure plate. are the fingers even? the throw out bearing and pilot were perfect? the splines and clutch hub were good? springs not goinked?

if something is binding then the release can get janky too.

 

[2011Supercab]

Are you using the self adjusting clutch ?

 

[scotts90ranger]

springs not goinked?

I see you are also fluent in technical terms...

 

[MasonMGM]

I've been running a centerforce clutch in my '90 for many years and it's been great, it's the one with weights on the pressure plate... but I don't have the bigger 4L clutch so my part numbers wouldn't help you...

That said I don't think the clutch is your problem, it sounds more like hydraulics. When you did the manual swap did you get a new separator plate between the engine and transmission? I don't know why Ford uses those dumb things but they do and they're important... The clutch should engage/disengage about an inch from fully released, IE right at the top, it "should" do that for the complete life of the clutch or that's been my experience over the last 25 years...

Just to confirm you're having troubles with the clutch engaging or disengaging?

Small air bubbles in the master cylinder make the clutch work bad, as the fluid expands with temp I imagine that would change where the bubbles get.

The dumbest thing I know of that could maybe have a minor chance of helping is pedal to the floor not running or in neutral and slipping your foot off the pedal like 3 times or more. This sometimes pulls fluid past the bubbles in the master cylinder.

I did get the plate when I did the swap. It doesn’t seem that I was having any issues with that. Everything that I had been seeing kind of led me to believe it was the pressure plate. I went through and replaced the clutch yesterday with one from O’Reilly’s temporarily because the only consistency between the two clutch’s (the one from November and the one from April) is it appeared to be that the clutch fingers on the pressure plate were interacting with the clutch disc springs. There is a small bur on one side of all of the springs on the clutch disc on both clutches in the direction that the engine would be turning, and there is a small ware line on about a third of the fingers which would explain the ticking noise. It appears I am running through the pressure plates. Because earlier this week I had ripped everything out and replaced all new pre bled hydraulics because I thought it was an air bubble because everything seemed to point to that. But after putting it all back together, I pushed the clutch in, and the noise was still there along with the pedal feeling the same.
After installing the new clutch yesterday, I haven’t bled the system or anything. I plan on doing that today with a vac bleeder, but with everything together, I push the clutch in and it already feels much better (no sponginess and consistent feeling through the entire pedal with better return).

Since I was having problem with the Luke pressure plates I decided to just try out one of the Duralast ones, because it has a different style pressure plate. I still plan on replacing the clutch with some kind of heavier duty option, but I still don’t know what that might be just yet.

To answer other questions no, I haven’t done my headers or cats both I plan on addressing at some point later down the road the only exhaust modification I have done is after all four cats with a straight pipe into a jeep jk muffler to a side exit.

The pilot bearing showed no indication of where either time I took it out, and the throwout bearing was new both times I put in the new clutch and this last week with the new slave cylinder.

 

[MasonMGM]

I did get the plate when I did the swap. It doesn’t seem that I was having any issues with that. Everything that I had been seeing kind of led me to believe it was the pressure plate. I went through and replaced the clutch yesterday with one from O’Reilly’s temporarily because the only consistency between the two clutch’s (the one from November and the one from April) is it appeared to be that the clutch fingers on the pressure plate were interacting with the clutch disc springs. There is a small bur on one side of all of the springs on the clutch disc on both clutches in the direction that the engine would be turning, and there is a small ware line on about a third of the fingers which would explain the ticking noise. It appears I am running through the pressure plates. Because earlier this week I had ripped everything out and replaced all new pre bled hydraulics because I thought it was an air bubble because everything seemed to point to that. But after putting it all back together, I pushed the clutch in, and the noise was still there along with the pedal feeling the same.
After installing the new clutch yesterday, I haven’t bled the system or anything. I plan on doing that today with a vac bleeder, but with everything together, I push the clutch in and it already feels much better (no sponginess and consistent feeling through the entire pedal with better return).

Since I was having problem with the Luke pressure plates I decided to just try out one of the Duralast ones, because it has a different style pressure plate. I still plan on replacing the clutch with some kind of heavier duty option, but I still don’t know what that might be just yet.

To answer other questions no, I haven’t done my headers or cats both I plan on addressing at some point later down the road the only exhaust modification I have done is after all four cats with a straight pipe into a jeep jk muffler to a side exit.

The pilot bearing showed no indication of where either time I took it out, and the throwout bearing was new both times I put in the new clutch and this last week with the new slave cylinder.

sorry, reading this back it makes it sound like I reuse the pilot bearing, but I did in fact get a new pilot bearing each time. The old ones just did not look bad upon taking them out.

 

[SenorNoob]

So it sounds like you had a defective new pressure plate?

 

[scotts90ranger]

That does sound possible... not sure why the fingers would hit the springs on the friction disc unless the friction is backwards...

If you have good friction discs a weighted pressure plate from Centerforce can be obtained I believe which would increase holding power, at least that's the theory I'm going with on mine, in 10 years of use mostly offroading on my 2.3L turbo ranger I had .007 wear on the friction disc when I replaced it for good measure when I rebuilt the trans... that clutch is going in my '97 when the time comes...