The change to EB coils--pros/cons (long)

[ThatGuy]

Been a rough couple of weeks lately but I've finally gotten around to swapping from RBV coils to EB coils. All in all, swap was no problem but it was the fine tuning that has been the biggest pain. I've snapped a few pix along the way to help document the swap, as well as give some before and after poses. Also to show some of the headaches that I've encountered. I'd appreciate if people like Junkie and CopyKat would chime in to give pointers as to what they done when they swapped to a softer coil.
For those that don't have any background, I started with a 91 Ex with a 6" JD lift. This is the before pic. the day I got the lift on.

Ride and drive is excellent. Flex is ok.
From what I understand RBV coils are in the 475lb/in range. I wanted to swap to an EB coil that was softer to get more flex. I have the new JD coil buckets that allow you to run either RBV coils or EB coils so I figured the swap would go without a hitch. Yeah, that was my mistake....
Started out simple enough. Unbolt the RBV coil.

Bolt on the lower retainer that I made up. Be sure to not strip out the 3/4" threads in the axle housing as it takes forever to find a 3/4" tap and fix them back. Don't ask how I know, but I didn't drive for a few days.

Then slap the EB coil in.

On a side note, when swapping to a MUCH softer coil, static height means nothing. I started out with a new stock EB coil. After I put it in and got the EX off the jackstands it sit approx. 2 1/2" lower in the front and made my tires go / \. Yeah so I had to swap them back out.
I ended up going back to JD and talking to them about spring rates and taking many measurements. We finally decided that I should go with their 3.5" lift EB coil with a rating of 225lbs/in. This spring is 23" long static. I thought we'd never get it in but we finally managed to get it in and back on all fours. At the same time, we installed a spool in the rear. This is how it sits now.

It's approx 1" taller in the front now than in the first pic. Here's a close up of the coils in their new home.

Now we come to the point where I'm having some problems...
As with the RBV coils, the ride is excellent. Since these are a progerssive rate coil, they are mostly squished down under the weight of the Ex, but they still soak up bumps great. However, my biggest complaint is taking off from a red light. Since the coils are so light and compressed under the Ex when I take off from a dead stop the front end raises up, no joke, at least 8". It's to the point where my tires are only touching on the outer edges of the tread and look like this \ /. It stays that way through first and second gear and when I hit drive it begins to settle down back to normal. The first time I took off and it done it I about crapped my pants. Now since I have the rear spooled and the front end is doing this, turning at the red light is a sight to say the least. The front end raises up and I can't hardly turn either cuz I'm riding on the outside edge of the tire. I'm going to put limit straps on it to keep the front end from raising more than 1" above ride height.
This is from where I was parked in JD's parking lot and moved over to their shop door (approx. 25' in a straight line without gassing it)

Here's what the front end looks like up close.

So I dunno, other than putting limit straps on it, I'm stuck. The coils ride good and I'll find out this weekend how good they flex, but they are in no shape to drive on the street in the current situation. I'll be running these coils also when we do the SAS swap in the near future.

 

[4x4junkie]

That means you need longer coils.

I think I missed what you did to try to fine tune it though

Are you using a roller plate under one front tire so the suspension will fully settle to ride height when you let it off the jack? (this so you know right away where you're at with it)

And last, what has JD given you to properly correct your steering? I ask this because currently there literally does not exist any bolt-on options for steering corrections that will work on any lift higher than 4" with the softer coils.




Edit: N/M, I see you've now added more to your post.

Its your steering (I thought I tried to make it clear the steering would have the largest impact on it's handling with the EB coils)
You need a much longer drop pitman arm for that, or a custom modified K-link setup for it so your tierods are in phase with your axle beams, otherwise exactly what you have happening there happens.

See these links:
http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/winter2008/steering_tech.htm
http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499

The other thing is those VR-rate coils might be working against you by having all the top coil windings fully compressed like that. I've always preferred linear rate coils on anything that will see crawling action, whether it be TTB or solid axle. Otherwise you're just limiting your flex on the uptravel side.

 

[ThatGuy]

By fine tuning I really meant starting with a stock EB coil that was way too short and ending up with a 3.5" lift coil that almost perfectly matches where I was at the start. I began this in my driveway in the rain and ended up having to take it to JD so we could get it right. Also, my idea of running a limit strap to keep the front end from raising up on me, that is unless you have a secret to keeping yours down.

Roller plates--JD has some, I do not. I usually just drive around the block to get it to settle.

As far as steering, my kit came with a regular drop pitman arm that works great. My TREs are on top of the knuckle so I have a straight line across when at ride height. I will say that there will be a new steering option available other than Superlift, it is in development now and I will have the prototype as soon as it gets the go-ahead.

 

[4x4junkie]

I sent you a PM. (also I added more to my post as well, not sure if you saw it)

I can 100% guarantee you it's because of your steering geometry just by looking at your pics.

 

[ThatGuy]

Not following you on the steering, I don't have a steering problem. My problem is the dang EB coils are so soft that when I take off from a dead stop, the frontend raises up almost a foot higher than sitting still. I was just wanting to know how you or others were handling this problem. Would putting limit straps on work?

Edited to add:
N/M Junkie, I think you finally beat it into my head. I'll get back to you on what I find out tomorrow. Thanx!

 

[4x4junkie]

Not following you on the steering, I don't have a steering problem. My problem is the dang EB coils are so soft that when I take off from a dead stop, the frontend raises up almost a foot higher than sitting still. I was just wanting to know how you or others were handling this problem. Would putting limit straps on work?

I did get your PM back from mine. It most certainly is from the steering.

Just to put it out here for the others to see, it's caused by the jacked-up steering pulling the tires toed-in when the suspension unloads during acceleration, which in turn causes the suspension itself to jack even higher (the tires driving toward each other "pinches" the suspension much like how a scissors lift works), causing the tires to toe in ever more, until the suspension slams up all the way to as high as it can go, and your tires are left dragging on their sidewalls. Then you have the opposite that happens (albeit to a slightly lesser extent) on braking, the suspension tries to squat down because the bad angle on the steering then forces the tires toed-out.

Limit straps will not fix the problem (although would cover up a small part of the symptom, but also would remove the benefit you get with the softer coils in the process).
There are different reasons you could however run a single limit cable or strap over the frame connected to both sides if you wanted (disallowing both sides from drooping out together while still allowing full articulation), but it has nothing to do with stopping the suspension from jacking during acceleration, that like I mentioned comes from the steering.

 

[86 slo-vo]

very interesting read....so the question is junkie do you think an out of the box super runner setup would fix his problem? or would further mods need to be made?

 

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

The superrunner would still need to be modified. The center link needs to be dropped to the point where the tie rods are in line with the axle beams.


Also with the ride height change the truck will need a wheel alignment.

 

[4x4junkie]

very interesting read....so the question is junkie do you think an out of the box super runner setup would fix his problem? or would further mods need to be made?

Yeah, as detailed in the diagrams in the 1st of the two links I posted above, it would need to be modified.

It's really baffling to me why problems like this have continued on for as long as they have. People always bitch about TTBs handling like s#!t, ripping the tread off tires, blah blah blah, when all of this is due to the steering being screwed up like this. Softer coils just massively intensifies the issue (and is what the OP ran into here). Superlift had the perfect opportunity to create a novel fix for this issue, but they botched it by putting their centerlink way too high up for it to work properly with even a 4" suspension lift. It's actually optimized for a 2" lift, but who makes an actual 2" lift??? (that's not just a leveling lift)?

 

[railman]

in this situation....it isn't so much the steering as much the coil rate of the spring....that will happen whether ya have TTB, SAS, or even a SLA...

by useing such a tall spring with such a low coil rate he will have the pronounced rise on the front of his rig everytime weight is transfered to the rear....

as mentioned by him before....this did not occur with the RBV coils at the same static ride height....and as mentioned by him he went to a more than 60% softer spring rate...

you must realize that the 23" tall coil wants to be 23"s tall.....and by collapsing it to his desired ride height it will want to expand to its inherrant height as soon as enough weight is transfered from it...

if ya ever watch NASCAR or even Desert Racing you will see this phenomenon happening all the time.....

Nascar uses coil bind in the front end so that they have the most rigid chassis as possible ( hence useing the tires as their springs giving them consistancy in their set-ups ) that is why on acceleration out of the corners the front lifts pronouncly at the front and slam back down hugging the track in the entrance to the corners...

while Desert race trucks use extremely long soft coils for alot of suspension travel which is why when ya see them leave the start line it looks like they are trying to pull wheelies...watch the beginning of the Baja 1000, every truck does this...but they really aren't designed for street driving, but off road

if ya don't like the front of the truck rising so much...then you need to compromise your coil rate...say 350lbs/in. that will still support the truck at your desired static ride height, but you will still have some lift of the front in acceleration but, nowhere near as much...just because a 350lbs/in. spring will have a free height taller than the original 475lbs/in. spring....

now if ya really want the best of both worlds....on the lower spring perch have a tube welded onto it about 3"-4" long that the coil would slide over cause you have the coil retaining clips on the top to secure the coil in place and with a limiting strap whose length will keep the coil from sliding off the tube on the lower spring perch will give ya the extra flex ya want while not giving you the undesired rise on acceleration/weight transfer...

l8r, John

 

[CopyKat]

Alignment is the key.

the 225 lb/in spring rate is just too soft for the TTB. The WH PR coils I have are 235-326. I have a bunch of other things that make mine different. The D44 knuckles I used keep the TRE under the steering arm. I also run a Superrunner K link that I modified by dropping the center link about 2".

For giggles I replaced the K-link back in the summer with a stock link. The links were near perfect but the jacking was bad and I couldn't control it. in the Dirt my truck would sit like /--\ but on pavement it would be [---]. As soon as I would touch the accelerator it would climb \--/. I was running about a 1/4" toe out to try to keep it down. I switched back to the K link 2 days later. so I have spent over $300 on a new TRE linkage, that hangs on my wall.

If JD is serious about fixing teh steering then they need to do alot of trials and listen to what the guys have to say that made the Superrunner work for them. The only complaint with the super runner I have right now is that the linkages are too short. They need to be longer.

Here is how mine is setup. About the best view I got.

 

[ThatGuy]

Ok after talking to the guy that's gonna be doing my steering today, we have come up with a game plan. I forwarded him the links you supplied Junkie and we had a long discussion over the phone. I am going wheeling Sunday and after the ride the Ex is getting dropped off at his shop for some R&D.
I wanted to point out a couple of things. This is all my doing, JD has nothing to do with it other than supply me the parts. The coil buckets are meant to be a constant when switching from a TTB lift to a SAS. I don't believe they ever thought I'd try to run the EB coils before I done the SAS. I have read the comments on this board and thought I'd try the softer coils out to see if I could get a decent amount of droop when I go wheeling. I have never had one issue with the steering before the switch to the EB coils. I now know it's because of the stiffness of the RBV coils that no one has problems. Maybe if everyone had run softer coils years ago, the steering situation would have been fixed by now.
My lift is a one off and is still in the testing phase. By doing this swap, and utilizing the coil buckets to their extent I have brought a major hurdle to the forefront. I am hoping that this setback for me will prove to be a betterment for the RBV community as we now have two companies working to fix it.
I appreciate the way that 4x4 Junkie has went out of his way to help out and I encourage anyone that has any input to send suggestions to me. I will pass on all information and maybe together we can get this fixed. I feel like the F'n president typing this out...but you now have a voice as I am all about getting my sh!t fixed and I know the people that can do it. Look at it this way, I see several people that don't care to pay $400 for a steering system that don't work and then cut it up and fix it correctly. Those same people plus a lot more would LOVE to have something that worked better.

On a lighter note, I am going wheeling Sunday, will the suspension still raise up when in 4wd? If so then I'm gonna swap back to the RBV coils and put this on the back burner. I planned on throwing on some limit straps so I could drive to the trail and then pulling them off when we got there. I really want to see what kind of ride and flex I can get with the EB coils on though.

 

[4x4junkie]

in this situation....it isn't so much the steering as much the coil rate of the spring.... (blah blah blah). *snip*

I don't think you're understanding what's going on here... (didn't you read my above posts??) It is NOT because of weight transfer or that the coils are too soft (I have even softer coils than his in mine and I don't have this issue), it most certainly is because of the steering. The only reason it's happening now is because he no longer has the ridiculously stiff TTB coils that would otherwise restrain the suspension in place because the fawked up steering is trying to drive the damn tires right into one another (I know, I've already been down this road myself).
By posting all this stuff about race trucks, all you're doing is just confusing the issue (they run WAAAAYYY softer springs that what's being discussed here). Please... Just read the links and stuff I posted above and you'll see exactly what's going on here

.

Ok after talking to the guy that's gonna be doing my steering today, we have come up with a game plan. I forwarded him the links you supplied Junkie and we had a long discussion over the phone. I am going wheeling Sunday and after the ride the Ex is getting dropped off at his shop for some R&D.
I wanted to point out a couple of things. This is all my doing, JD has nothing to do with it other than supply me the parts. The coil buckets are meant to be a constant when switching from a TTB lift to a SAS. I don't believe they ever thought I'd try to run the EB coils before I done the SAS. I have read the comments on this board and thought I'd try the softer coils out to see if I could get a decent amount of droop when I go wheeling. I have never had one issue with the steering before the switch to the EB coils. I now know it's because of the stiffness of the RBV coils that no one has problems. Maybe if everyone had run softer coils years ago, the steering situation would have been fixed by now.
My lift is a one off and is still in the testing phase. By doing this swap, and utilizing the coil buckets to their extent I have brought a major hurdle to the forefront. I am hoping that this setback for me will prove to be a betterment for the RBV community as we now have two companies working to fix it.
I appreciate the way that 4x4 Junkie has went out of his way to help out and I encourage anyone that has any input to send suggestions to me. I will pass on all information and maybe together we can get this fixed. I feel like the F'n president typing this out...but you now have a voice as I am all about getting my sh!t fixed and I know the people that can do it. Look at it this way, I see several people that don't care to pay $400 for a steering system that don't work and then cut it up and fix it correctly. Those same people plus a lot more would LOVE to have something that worked better.

On a lighter note, I am going wheeling Sunday, will the suspension still raise up when in 4wd? If so then I'm gonna swap back to the RBV coils and put this on the back burner. I planned on throwing on some limit straps so I could drive to the trail and then pulling them off when we got there. I really want to see what kind of ride and flex I can get with the EB coils on though.

Oh you had issues with your steering all right, it just wasn't near as apparent with the stiff coils keeping the suspension from moving. Bad steering geometry like that can still easily cause excess tire wear (how many times now have we all heard someone complain their TTB ruined their tires? ).

As a temporary thing, maybe throw the Skyjacker #FA600 pitman arm on there. Even if it's still not corrected 100% (the arm only drops down 4" from stock), it will be MUCH better than what's on there now (and this is just a matter of bolting it on). Once you have a more permanent setup on there (K-link, crossover, etc.), I'm sure you could recoup a good chunk of what you paid for the arm by selling it on the forum here.


As for when you're off road however, the tendency for the suspension to jack itself should be a lot less. Because your tires can't grip as much on dirt as on pavement, they won't gather as much force to "pinch" the suspension into a bind as much. You'll likely still notice some rather strange quirkiness with the handling due to the massive bumpsteer though. It will be steering your wheels for you as you drive over stuff, rather that you steering the wheels yourself.

 

[CopyKat]

Junkie you and I should collaborate on a steering setup that "works" then charge an arm and a leg for it. There is alot of companies that have a product that works. It's called a cross over steering however they are not made for lift brackets.

 

[4x4junkie]

Lol, I wonder we could get pretty rich huh?
'Course we might also have some competition here shortly too by the sounds of it.

As for companies with the crossover systems, mostly it's just a few low-medium volume outfits here in So Cal that cater to the desert dwellers. You could easily adapt one for use with lift brackets by lengthening it's swingarms a bit, but you'd still have the issue of clearance with the 4WD front diff (forcing you to put large bends in the tierods so everything clears). The K-link has straight tierods which (combined with it's simple design) potentially makes it the sturdiest setup of any.

With the centerlink matched well to the lift, I have not noticed any ill effects from the K-link's tierods being shorter (I really can't see how most anyone would notice unless they spend a lot of time in the air with their truck, and even still, it's pretty slight). I think the benefits mentioned above far outweigh any drawbacks with having the tierods center-mounted.