Still trying figure out 5th gear pop out

[lindburly]

I posted another thread a few weeks ago asking advice on whether I could address this by taking the tail off the tranny with it still on the truck. Turned out it wasn't a good idea, so after failing to get the Y pipe off, I was able to wrestle the whole thing off the truck ('97 Ranger, 4.0 OHV, 4WD). That was enough to convince me that I would never be able to get it back in over the Y pipe. LOL, I invested in an air compressor, impact wrench, die grinder, air hammer, and oxy-MAPP torch, but I finally got the damn thing off.

The tranny is a remanufactured M5OD R1 that I bought from Zumbrota Drivetrain and had professionally installed. After 12 months and less than 3,000 miles it began popping out of 5th whenever I applied even a bit of power. I didn't find much in the tail section that would account for my problem:

1. The 5th gear slider and hub were oriented correctly.
2. The fork and slider showed no visible wear.
3. I did find that one of the retainer springs in the hub was bent up in the areas of the keys, but that could be because I took a few trips while holding it in 5th with a notched piece of wood.
4. There was a slight amount of wear on the engagement teeth in the hub, but not on the 5th gear engagement teeth.
5. The leading corners of some of the teeth of reverse gear on the counter shaft were chipped off.
6. I don't have a micrometer, but a ruler showed about a half millimeter (or about 20 thousands) of end play in both the input shaft. The counter shaft probably had a hair more than that.

Although probably not necessary, I bought a new fork and slider, new hub, and new reverse gear. I'm still trying to source a new spring and key set for 5th/reverse. Does anyone know if 5th uses the same set as 1st/2nd? The 5/R and 1st/2nd sliders are similar in size. I can find springs for 1st/2nd but not 5/R.

Anyway, I'm about set to put everything back in, but I worry that the new parts are not going to solve the problem. After reading this, http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/popout.html
I'm worried that excess end play could be the more likely culprit. (My engine mounts seem to be very solid and I did buy a new transmission mount, although the old one didn't look bad.) I dread taking the rest of the transmission apart and messing with shims. Would appreciate any advice.

 

[dvdswan]

Have you tried contacting Zumbrota Drivetrain and see what they say? I would think with less than 3k on the rebuild they would do something.

 

[Shran]

I seem to recall that the 5th/rev springs and keys are different than the others. The book I have from Motive Gear has 1L5Z7A044BA listed for the keys and E8TZ7109B for the springs... Ford part numbers.

There was a thread here from years back about someone solving pop out issues by shimming the countershaft tighter. I can't find it. I think it's worth a try, it's super easy to do...just remove the front bearing retainer and the shims are right there. Be aware that the published specs (0.15-0.25mm, 0.006-0.010) have always been off in my experience - I've shimmed the countershaft right at 0.006 and it's tight enough that it locks up the trans. Needs to be a hair looser than that.

I also read in a manual for a different trans that the springs in the hubs should have the open sides facing different directions. The M5OD books I have mention nothing about this but it's the same concept. I assume that it assures even pressure on the keys. I couldn't say if that's contributing to your problem or not.

 

[gw33gp]

I agree with dvdswan, contact Zumbrota. They have a 2 yr. warranty on their remanufactured transmissions. Their warranty even states they will cover up to $150 labor and $200 freight. I will certainty call them if I have a problem with mine.

 

[lindburly]

Thanks for the replies! I am beyond disappointed in Zumbrota Drivetrain. I didn't mention it in my first post because I didn't want to get overly long, but this was the second rebuilt I bought from them. I got the first one from them in Jan. 2019 for $725 and had it professionally installed along with a new clutch and slave cylinder. After just 4 months and very little driving, the 2nd gear synchro went out. I called Dan Anfinsen, the sales guy there who sold me the first unit and he insisted that I had to pay another $725 for the warranty replacement transmission. I don't know if he was trying to say that I got a special price on the first one, therefore no warrantee or what. I went back and forth several times with him and finally, anxious to get back on the road, I paid up. The replacement started having 5th gear pop out just over 11 months in, after less than 3,000 miles. I called Dan again only to be told that the warrantee applies only to the original purchase. Of course I argued that there was no fulfillment of warranty because I paid for both transmissions. Called several times and also sent a lengthy email threatening to badmouth the hell out of Zumbrota Drivetrain if they didn't help out, but got nothing.

I recently discovered that Zumbrota and Midwest Transmissions are now the same company. Midwest is located close to me in Maple Grove MN and offers technical assistance via email. This morning I made my case to them and said I thought the least they could do is take a look at the end play. I'll give an update if and when I hear back from them.

So Shran, thanks for the info. Are you saying that you don't have to take the main gear set apart when you shim the counter shaft? If I don't get any help from Midwest, that definitely sounds worth doing before putting it back in.

 

[Shran]

So Shran, thanks for the info. Are you saying that you don't have to take the main gear set apart when you shim the counter shaft? If I don't get any help from Midwest, that definitely sounds worth doing before putting it back in.

Well that's a huge fawking bummer. Very disappointing... curious if there's any legal help you could get if they don't stand behind their warranty. Maybe your state's attorney general would know.

Yes, you can shim the counter and main shafts without disassembling anything other than the front bearing retainer inside the bellhousing. Very easy. Do you have the service manual? I can send it your way if not.

FYI I believe that USA Standard Gear is also part of the Zumbrota company.

 

[dvdswan]

State's Attorney, BBB, even AAA might be able to help.

 

[lindburly]

Well that's a huge fawking bummer. Very disappointing... curious if there's any legal help you could get if they don't stand behind their warranty. Maybe your state's attorney general would know.

Yes, you can shim the counter and main shafts without disassembling anything other than the front bearing retainer inside the bellhousing. Very easy. Do you have the service manual? I can send it your way if not.

FYI I believe that USA Standard Gear is also part of the Zumbrota company.

I'm not sure if they are the same, but somewhere down the line I found and downloaded a shop manual for the m5r2. Don't have one specifically for m5r1. I called Midwest and my call was picked up by a guy from Zumbrota, so they definitely are the same. He said they'd be happy to take a look at the transmission but it would be 4 weeks out. At least they are going to have someone deliver parts for me to the Maple Grove location (which is pretty near me) tomorrow. He confirmed that the key and springs for 5th/reverse are the same as for 1st/2nd, so I ordered that and a shim kit. He said the shim kit is for the input shaft and there are no shims available for the counter shaft. I read elsewhere that there is a spacer that is "sized to fit" for the counter shaft, but he didn't know of one and I haven't found any on the internet. What did you use for the counter shaft? Thanks again for the help!

 

[lindburly]

State's Attorney, BBB, even AAA might be able to help.

Yes, I may try the State Attorney Office. They helped me out once with Comcast. Thanks!

 

[Shran]

He said the shim kit is for the input shaft and there are no shims available for the counter shaft. I read elsewhere that there is a spacer that is "sized to fit" for the counter shaft, but he didn't know of one and I haven't found any on the internet. What did you use for the counter shaft? Thanks again for the help!

He's partially correct, there is technically a "spacer" there but you can definitely order various sizes. And you can add smaller shims if you can't get exactly what you want. I have an Inland Truck Parts store here in town and was able to look through their box of shims and found several that I used, they were the same OD as the spacer... stack a shim between the spacer and the bearing retainer so that the ID of the shim doesn't really matter. Here's what my book says for countershaft spacers/part numbers:

I PM'd you a Google drive link to the full PDF manual I've been using.