Lockers....Help?

[rockwerks]

The limited slip with a .040 shim instead of the .035 shim works rather well for me in most common bad winter road conditions. which includes
snow.

more snow.

slush.

A snow I call greasy snow which is snow that on crappy tires might as well be ice.

Ice of course.

Then there is the almost slush almost snow which you can dig through like snow but above a certain speed level you simply hydroplane off of it towards the ditch => fun that stuff.

Snow covered ice. which is totally hard to predict what its going to do sometimes its actually better traction.. sometimes not.

Water covered ice. very dangerous stuff. hard to spot.

And then there is the most dangerous shit around. water covered black ice. impossible to spot. you simply cannot see it through the water at all. Luckily this shit is usually taken care of by the salt trucks.

And a open front diff. I can easily think of bad things happening with a locker on the front and slippy conditions. I much rather have my back end slide around some then my front end start doing a side wise slide.

If your rig is part time 4x it makes little difference. I have driven front locked XJ's for 8 years in the snows and ice of Northern Arizona without any issues. 9' of snow a year and Black Ice on the streets there are a daily occurrence in the winter.

 

[Shran]

My ideal combo (and what I am saving up for) is a Detroit in the rear and an Ox or ARB in the front. I am somewhat sold on the Ox right now because a lot of guys I wheel with have problems with ARBs leaking air in various places. A guy could also run selectable lockers front and rear which would have definite advantages, but the cost and durability of the Detroit is why I chose it.

 

[rockwerks]

My ideal combo (and what I am saving up for) is a Detroit in the rear and an Ox or ARB in the front. I am somewhat sold on the Ox right now because a lot of guys I wheel with have problems with ARBs leaking air in various places. A guy could also run selectable lockers front and rear which would have definite advantages, but the cost and durability of the Detroit is why I chose it.

Ive run both the ARB and OX and have never had any issues with either. The key to the ARB setup is to use an air pressure regulator to make sure you dont put over 100 psi into the lockers. msot failures are becaue of too much air to too little.

The ox's are a killer setup when you get the cables set right. I had 2 in my last XJ

 

[Nhaz]

If your rig is part time 4x it makes little difference. I have driven front locked XJ's for 8 years in the snows and ice of Northern Arizona without any issues. 9' of snow a year and Black Ice on the streets there are a daily occurrence in the winter.

Black ice by itself while dangerous doesn't really bother me at all. you can generally spot it. I just don't like the idea of going around a corner with a locked front end and having the front end decide to start going sideways slide due to the locked front end.

I just think you actually have less traction in that situation then you would with a open diff. And that situation occurs every time you go around a snow or ice covered corner.

my opinion anyways.

 

[rockwerks]

Black ice by itself while dangerous doesn't really bother me at all. you can generally spot it. I just don't like the idea of going around a corner with a locked front end and having the front end decide to start going sideways slide due to the locked front end.

I just think you actually have less traction in that situation then you would with a open diff. And that situation occurs every time you go around a snow or ice covered corner.

my opinion anyways.

IF the axle is not connnected, (driving), it has no forces imparted to make the locker work. if you have hubs then the locker can not effect anything because the hubs are not connected to the axles. It can not have an effect of any type.. If you have locking hubs or axle disconnect a front locker will not have any effect on steering if not in 4 wheel drive. In 4 wheel drive what you need to understand is to slow down going into corners and accelerate through to minimize the effects of a front locker.

 

[AllanD]

I think the concern that some people have about a locker in the
front is it's effects on ice/snow when driving in 2wd mode with
the hubs locked.

I've got a D35 lockright sitting here on my desk that I
didn't actually drive in the few days it was actually installed
in my truck (never got the front driveshaft installed) the diff
I installed it in had an issue with the pinion flange
and I was in WAY too much of a hurry to get the truck back
together (I needed to make a trip to Boston) to swap it over.

But a couple of years ago when I was doing the overhaul of my truck
I was driving an F-150 with TIGHT limited slips at both ends
and frankly I never really noticed any effects from the Dana TracLok
in the front from driving with the hubs locked.

BTW, the SPECIFIC shim thickness used when setting up a ford limited slip
is whatever shim allows you to BARELY install the spider gear cross shafts.

Personally, I have no objection to putting a slight bevel on both the
cross-shaft and the tips of both axles to allow me to FORCE them
together...

Under perfect traction conditions (dry pavement with a load in the truck)
it'll still slip, but under less than perfect conditions (for atleast a year or so)
it'll behave like a spool.

My personal thought on a rear differential is that I want it to slip just
enough to avoid breaking an axle shaft.

I'll deal with any traction induced Yaw effects that driving an axle like that

But I perfectly undersand something that many refuse to believe, that even turning all four wheels with no slippossible you can stll get stuck.

there's a spot in my yard where snow melt tends to puddle into a shallow pond
(a few inches deep) and makes a parking lot sized skating rink.

Back when my brother still had my (former) '87 Bronco2,
which had TIGHT limited slips at both ends (He added the front one)
a friend borrowed it to drive from my brother's (at the time 25miles away)
to borrow some plumbing tools got it stuck in the "skating rink"

It was very amusing to leave it there idling in gear in 4x4 with the hubs locked and pushing it around on that patch of ice ike it was on Go-Jacks...

Ice is THE most unforgiving surface.

Lockers help, but they just don't do it.

you really wanna go? you need to deal wiht the other end of the
traction equasion... bigger tires in winter conditions HURT far more
than they help...

what you REALLY want?

CHAINS.

a 4x4 with lockers and CHAINS, prefferably on tall NARROW tires will go places that only a helicopter or a certified nutcase on a dirt bike can get to.


I keep reminding people that BFG does make 33x9.5's, but I have yet
to see anyone take the hint.... Frankly, I think people putting tall
W-i-d-e ( ? x 12.5 ) tires on a Ranger then even thinking about
driving it in the snow should have their head examined, but that's
just my opinion and who listens to little old me...



D

 

[rockwerks]

See I would never consider driving a locking hub rig around in 2x because it just adds wear to the system, all the drive shaft, axles, gears are now rotating, and yes in that situation there would be locker drag in the system.

I keep reminding people that BFG does make 33x9.5's, but I have yet
to see anyone take the hint.... Frankly, I think people putting tall
W-i-d-e ( ? x 12.5 ) tires on a Ranger then even thinking about
driving it in the snow should have their head examined, but that's
just my opinion and who listens to little old me...

That is a big 10/4! I only ran 12.5 for about a week on any of my former rigs, 10.5 is as wide as I have gone. my favorite tire was a 34 x 10.5

 

[Nhaz]

IF the axle is not connnected, (driving), it has no forces imparted to make the locker work. if you have hubs then the locker can not effect anything because the hubs are not connected to the axles. It can not have an effect of any type.. If you have locking hubs or axle disconnect a front locker will not have any effect on steering if not in 4 wheel drive. In 4 wheel drive what you need to understand is to slow down going into corners and accelerate through to minimize the effects of a front locker.

I will power through a snow covered corner by using the 4x4 For the traction under acceleration. Without sliding off. If I have to slow down to compensate for the locked front diff. whats the point?

Front lockers have their applications and I firmly believe that they are 100% required for a good off road rig. But for winter road driving in bad conditions I think a front locker is not a good idea.

And Allen. My winter tires are a inch narrower then my regular BFG's. The tire guy was trying to tell me that he couldn't get them on the rims them being to narrow. I had to demonstrate to a tire guy (and me not owning a tire machine or used one more then twice in my life) he couldn't understand the concept of making sure 1 side had a start on a seal before trying to put air in it.

 

[trail B2]

I have a l/s in the back with a lock right in the front and i really like it The cost is reasonable and it works well.When the hubs are unlocked you don't know it's there, locked up it's good in deep snow and still turns good and sharp clicks a lot though which is why I wouldn't want one in back.It would be annoying all the time.Oxes work good but there expensive and when your climbing and turning you have to kick them in and out to turn.All that being said I'm not a rock guy everyone seems to love rocks.


It always feels good to hear Allen say some thing you agree with I got the 10.5x33" tires very happy they just fit that old b2 better.Thanks for the tips on how to set up my 8.8 l/s for my axle swap.

 

[rockwerks]

I will power through a snow covered corner by using the 4x4 For the traction under acceleration. Without sliding off. If I have to slow down to compensate for the locked front diff. whats the point?

Front lockers have their applications and I firmly believe that they are 100% required for a good off road rig. But for winter road driving in bad conditions I think a front locker is not a good idea.

And Allen. My winter tires are a inch narrower then my regular BFG's. The tire guy was trying to tell me that he couldn't get them on the rims them being to narrow. I had to demonstrate to a tire guy (and me not owning a tire machine or used one more then twice in my life) he couldn't understand the concept of making sure 1 side had a start on a seal before trying to put air in it.

For my experience of 8 years driving on the highway and in the snow I have never had any problems with a front locker. That is practical daily driving experience not my thoughts or suspicions. As for having to stretch a tire sidewall to fit on a rim, that is a dangerous practice!

 

[Nhaz]

For my experience of 8 years driving on the highway and in the snow I have never had any problems with a front locker. That is practical daily driving experience not my thoughts or suspicions. As for having to stretch a tire sidewall to fit on a rim, that is a dangerous practice!

heh they arn't really stretched much they are stock rims and the tire size i chose for the winter was with 215 65 r15 . the tires that came off were 235 75 r15. Not That much of a diff. and they wern't stretched to be put on. the guy really didn't know how to. all i did was tap one side on lightly from the inside and then put air in it. worked first time without any trouble. I serious was watching this guy Not understand the concept of getting one side started before the other side. I had to point it out to the other tire person there then i started one tire and left the Other tire guy to do it. the second guy knew how and didn't even blink.

 

[bigcountry]

i agree with nhaz lockers have there place off road only like,rocks,mud,sand and so on. i have learned from expericence my buddy had a late 70 model bronco and we were muddin about a week after he had it installed and we were leavin after about 2 hours of mud slinging and just over all having a good time we were on a packed dirt road and a kinda sharp corner(keep in mind he has had that bronco for about 2 years he knew how it drove very well) so we are going around the kinda sharp corner and going through the corner the steering wheel would not turn as much as it normally did and we hit a tree totalled that poor bronco. we took it to the local 4x4shop to try and fix it and they asked bout the front axle and he informed them that he had a lockrite installed in it and the gave us both a ear full for doing that and we were told by the guys that worked there and other guys that were there it was a very bad idea to have done that and we got very lucky it wasnt worse. before the wreck he was telling me how the steering was different like not turning all the way but we both just assumed that so much mud had caked up and made the tires feel heavy and the guys at the 4x4shop looked over the truck and nothing was wrong with any of the steering compoments and looked through the front axle everything was installed correctly the locker just did what it was made to do. this is why i stress so much that no one put a locker in the front axle i dont want what happend to us happen even worse to any one else

 

[rockwerks]

i agree with nhaz lockers have there place off road only like,rocks,mud,sand and so on. i have learned from expericence my buddy had a late 70 model bronco and we were muddin about a week after he had it installed and we were leavin after about 2 hours of mud slinging and just over all having a good time we were on a packed dirt road and a kinda sharp corner(keep in mind he has had that bronco for about 2 years he knew how it drove very well) so we are going around the kinda sharp corner and going through the corner the steering wheel would not turn as much as it normally did and we hit a tree totalled that poor bronco. we took it to the local 4x4shop to try and fix it and they asked bout the front axle and he informed them that he had a lockrite installed in it and the gave us both a ear full for doing that and we were told by the guys that worked there and other guys that were there it was a very bad idea to have done that and we got very lucky it wasnt worse. before the wreck he was telling me how the steering was different like not turning all the way but we both just assumed that so much mud had caked up and made the tires feel heavy and the guys at the 4x4shop looked over the truck and nothing was wrong with any of the steering compoments and looked through the front axle everything was installed correctly the locker just did what it was made to do. this is why i stress so much that no one put a locker in the front axle i dont want what happend to us happen even worse to any one else

So you blame the locker for poor driving skills and improper speed for conditions? Lets see hard packed road (slippery) with packed mud in the tires (even worse) and probably other parts either filled with mud or bent (stock steering rods bend like twigs hate mud ) since the truck was totalled we dont know if there was any other underlying factors

 

[Shran]

i agree with nhaz lockers have there place off road only like,rocks,mud,sand and so on. i have learned from expericence my buddy had a late 70 model bronco and we were muddin about a week after he had it installed and we were leavin after about 2 hours of mud slinging and just over all having a good time we were on a packed dirt road and a kinda sharp corner(keep in mind he has had that bronco for about 2 years he knew how it drove very well) so we are going around the kinda sharp corner and going through the corner the steering wheel would not turn as much as it normally did and we hit a tree totalled that poor bronco. we took it to the local 4x4shop to try and fix it and they asked bout the front axle and he informed them that he had a lockrite installed in it and the gave us both a ear full for doing that and we were told by the guys that worked there and other guys that were there it was a very bad idea to have done that and we got very lucky it wasnt worse. before the wreck he was telling me how the steering was different like not turning all the way but we both just assumed that so much mud had caked up and made the tires feel heavy and the guys at the 4x4shop looked over the truck and nothing was wrong with any of the steering compoments and looked through the front axle everything was installed correctly the locker just did what it was made to do. this is why i stress so much that no one put a locker in the front axle i dont want what happend to us happen even worse to any one else

That is not the locker's fault. That is driver error. There are literally thousands of people out there with front lockers that avoid something like that happening. You just have to know how to drive correctly (hubs unlocked, locker disengaged if possible) and not overdrive your rig!

 

[rockwerks]

That is not the locker's fault. That is driver error. There are literally thousands of people out there with front lockers that avoid something like that happening. You just have to know how to drive correctly (hubs unlocked, locker disengaged if possible) and not overdrive your rig!

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