ignition system upgrade question

[rurouni20xx]

okay so im going to beef my motor for turbo, this is a continuation and repost of the initial question trying to obtain more information. ive read that a stock ignition will hold up just need to lessen the gap on the plugs, ive been running the stock ap764 autolite platinums, no real complaints. my question is under that much pressure do i need to run an ignition upgrade and if i do which one? and what style plugs should i run. ive gotten replys saying copper core plugs, which i think i read somewhere else (i think on one of the manufacturer pages) not to run those plugs. i was looking at the accel upgrade, it hits 40k volts like the msd does, and basically looks like the stock stuff just beefier, which would ease my installation. the plugs i would have used would be ngk iridiums or bosch quad 4s with the ignition upgrade. i wont dare use them w/o the upgrade as stock ignitions dont produce the power required to hit all 4 gaps and once, making them hit one at the time w/ reduced spark causing it to throw the ignition timing off and create a poor running/no running situation. been there done that burned the shirt. if there is a reliablity issue w/ the accel or the msd is just a better ignition for the money please let me know. im looking to get the best burn possible with the engine im building. thanx for all replies.

 

[Gotta_gofast]

Since you have the EEC-IV computer and distributor ignition system, you can basically run anything the 5.0L mustang guys are running. If you push 15lbs of boost, you will definatly want to upgrade the ignition system's voltage output and function.

I mentioned to you in another forum the reasons to upgrade. There are higher cylinder pressures creating more resistance. Think of voltage as "pressure". The electrons need to overcome the resistance between the electrode and the ground of the sparkplug. As you increase the cylinder pressure, you increase the resistance between electrode and the ground. In order to combat this, you must apply more "pressure" (which would be voltage) so that the electrons can flow from electrode to ground. Some guys are simply regapping their plugs so that the electrode is closer to the ground. This is effectively lowering the resistance because the electrons do not have to travel as far through the air. Is it the best solution? Not at all. A smaller gap means a smaller spark and a weaker ignition. Secondly, I said you must upgrade your ignition system's function. Your stock ignition isn't designed to retard the timing when you add pressure to the cylinder. If you do not retard the timing, your spark plug will fire causing a flamefront. Since the fuel/air mixture is compressed beyond the factory 9.3:1 ratio, the flamefront travels to the piston a lot faster. That flamefront hits the piston and tries to drive it downward, but the piston is at TDC so instead of forcing the piston down, the energy is transfered through the piston to the con-rod and crankshaft. Something is about to break! Look into a boost controller. Like I said earlier, most of the components that the boosted 5.0L guys use you should be able to use (obviously not the distributer).

Here's MSD's universal boost control system (there's also an MSD specific version)
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD-5462&N=700+0&autoview=sku

And here's ACCEL's EEC-IV 300 series Igniton Box/coil kit
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ACC-49326&N=700+0&autoview=sku

And if you want to expand on the ACCEL unit, here's their 375+ kit (which will control boost, control rev limiters, ect.)
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ACC-49375&N=700+0&autoview=sku

There's plenty of stuff out there.

EDIT: Do not use multi-electrode spark plugs. They will only fire off of one gap anyway. On top of this, they tend to lose their gap with heat and time.

 

[Big Jim M]

20XX the upgrade MAY not need to be done. I would first try with the present system. If the system misfires you will know you need more voltage. I suspect the system will perform well and only, if ever, missfire at very high rpm.
NEVER use plugs with more than one electrode. Since only one electrode makes the spark any other electrode will only cause LESS fuel to enter the gap that IS firing.
Don't believe all the hooey the aftermarket guys put on you! Try what you've got before considering any upgrade. If what you have works without missfiring then NO UPGRADE can do better..period!
As for the plug gap. If the turbo isn't being used the gap will need to be where it is now to insure there is fuel in the gap. Lessening the gap might cause missfire before the turbo kicks in. If you do make the gap smaller I would start with small changes. A large gap will be needed at most times when the turbo isn't being fully used.
Oh yeah, ANY spark that is in the fuel mixture is as good as ANY OTHER spark! Large or small, blue or yellow, a spark is just a spark! All coils cause the spark at the same time. The coil builds up energy until the gap can be jumped at the existing pressure. Either the coil CAN make enough power or it can't and if it can't the engine misses and tells you that another coil is needed.
Big JIm

 

[shadetree]

If you are putting a turbo on the 3.0 listed in your sig, then the stock ignition will be fine. You will not be able to run high boost anyway due to the higher compression ratio of the engine.

The 2.3 turbos run up to 16lbs of boost, and set their plugs at .032/.034 because of the higher boost.

The only advantage of multi electrode plugs is they may last longer. That is if the center doesn't wear out first. They fire no hotter than any other plug, and as stated only fire one electrode at a time. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, and that will be the electrode that fires. As the electrode wears, the path will move to another electrode. That is how they may last longer.

If you do change the compression ratio and move to higher boost, or decide to use nitrous, then an ignition upgrade would be considered.

I would use double platinum plugs due to the way the plugs fire. High boost, use the copper. The tips on the plats have been known to come off under high boost pressures. With the lower pressure you will be running, I don't think there will be a problem with the plats.shady

 

[rurouni20xx]

im building a 3.3 stroker w/ turbocharger at 15 psi w/ forged bottom end and stage 3 porting. i have been leery of multi electrode plugs since they cause serious problems, especially the cheap splitfires and bosch 4s. the 4s will hit on all electrodes w/ 40k volts or so, ive seen it b4. a yellow spark is a weak spark and is actually a half degree off, closing the gap to make it blue a hair is best or change plugs. i was just asking since im running that much fuel and air will i need more spark to burn all the incoming a/f mix at the proper time, i feared that the factory ignition wouldnt have a hot enuff spark to ignite all the mixture creating the dreadful ping. i realize that that is more timing related but incomplete burning isnt good either, and closing the gap on a plug creates a smaller air surface gap for the spark to cover, creating incomplete combustion. so i ask again, is a hotter spark required or will i just be better off sticking to the stock ignition and not worry about the brialliance of spark to ignite all the fuel?

 

[Big Jim M]

Omg!

im building a 3.3 stroker w/ turbocharger at 15 psi w/ forged bottom end and stage 3 porting. i have been leery of multi electrode plugs since they cause serious problems, especially the cheap splitfires and bosch 4s. the 4s will hit on all electrodes w/ 40k volts or so, ive seen it b4. a yellow spark is a weak spark and is actually a half degree off, closing the gap to make it blue a hair is best or change plugs. i was just asking since im running that much fuel and air will i need more spark to burn all the incoming a/f mix at the proper time, i feared that the factory ignition wouldnt have a hot enuff spark to ignite all the mixture creating the dreadful ping. i realize that that is more timing related but incomplete burning isnt good either, and closing the gap on a plug creates a smaller air surface gap for the spark to cover, creating incomplete combustion. so i ask again, is a hotter spark required or will i just be better off sticking to the stock ignition and not worry about the brialliance of spark to ignite all the fuel?

20XX That is the most NOVICE uninformed post on coils and plugs I have ever read all in one place!!!!!

Once again I will tell you that ANY spark, yellow, blue or green, will light the mixture! Once lit the mixture will BURN at the SAME rate.. The mixture don't know WHAT lit it. And yes a small yellow spark will cause the EXACT burn that a snappy blue one will burn.

AND no! You didn't see all four electrodes getting a spark all at one time!

It seems you have your heart set on buying MORE coil and WORSE plugs than the guys here are telling you what works.. If so GO AHEAD waste your money.

Big JIm

 

[rurouni20xx]

20XX That is the most NOVICE uninformed post on coils and plugs I have ever read all in one place!!!!!

Once again I will tell you that ANY spark, yellow, blue or green, will light the mixture! Once lit the mixture will BURN at the SAME rate.. The mixture don't know WHAT lit it. And yes a small yellow spark will cause the EXACT burn that a snappy blue one will burn.

apparently you have never worked in a shop.

AND no! You didn't see all four electrodes getting a spark all at one time!

again your not me you dont know what i saw, it was on a drag setup running 80k volts.

It seems you have your heart set on buying MORE coil and WORSE plugs than the guys here are telling you what works.. If so GO AHEAD waste your money.

im not set on wasting money, im asking an informed question requiring an honest experienced answer, not uninformed opinions. im simply going to ignore this comment. i appreciate 2 cents, but im looking for 2 cents, not credit card opinions. thanx to all that posted what they have seen for fact and tried pointing me in the right direction. im not going to run the multi electrode plugs, the copper ones should do fine, any experience w/ iridium tips anybody?

 

[Gotta_gofast]

A hotter spark will not burn more fuel. Upgrading a coil on a stock ignition, for example, will do absolutly nothing. You only need to increase voltage when you increase the cylinder pressure... because of the added resistance not the added fuel. Big Jim is right, a spark is a spark. Its job is to ignite the air/fuel and start the combustion process.

First off, the electrons jump from the electrode to the ground. Air is NOT a good conductor. In order for the electrons to flow from the electrode to the ground, they must overcome the resistance of the air. What happens when electrons encounter resistance? Heat is created. What is a spark? A heat source. You see, its not the voltage that ignites the fuel, its the heat created when electricity is subjected to resistance. If the electricity caused the combustion process, we'd all have plugs that ran a small wire from the electrode to the ground.

So, what happens in the cylinder? Well, that piston has just pushed all the exhaust gasses out of its cylinder and is currently on its way back down. The intake valve opens, and the vacuum created draws air/fuel mixture into the cylinder, much like a syringe pulling up blood from your arm. The intake valve closes as the piston begins its compression stroke. The piston has now travelled a majority of the way up, squeezing that mixture tight. now, the piston is just a hair before TDC, and the spark plug ignites. Lets pause this picture, and take a closer look at what is happening at the electrode.

Electrons have just passed through the air, creating heat. Any fuel particle in the imidiate area of the heat source combusts. As the fuel particles combust, they use the oxygen in the air around them to burn. This creates a chain reaction. The unburned fuel particles next to the ignited fuel particles begin to combust, and the process becomes exponentially faster. The flame travels from the electrode to the piston. We call this the "flame front". You see, the "explosion" is actually a flame traveling very fast from the original heat source to the piston... not all the fuel particles combust the same time.

Back to inside the cylinder. We left off where the piston was just a hair before TDC. The spark plug has just fired and the spark has ignited the fuel particles in its imidiate area. We now know that the flame is on its way toward the piston. Well, the piston has already reached TDC and is beginning its journey downward again. The flamefront now hits the piston with impact, driving the piston down with force. This process is timed perfectly... at idle.

But what happens when the motor revs? Well, the piston speed increases but the rate at which the flame travels remains the same. Well, this isn't going to do much for performance, is it. Because when the sparkplug ignites the fuel (just before TDC) The piston is traveling so fast that by the time the flamefront reaches the piston, it has already been traveling downward. The flamefront will push the piston downward, but not through the whole stroke. Hmmm, how to get the flamefront to begin pushing on the piston sooner? (like it was at idle) Well, we have to advance the ignition. Now what happens?

Well, the piston is on its way up, again. But this time, the spark plug fires a lot sooner because we advanced the ignition. The flamefront has started its way toward the piston, but the piston is still moving up. The piston, however, is moving so fast now that it reaches TDC and is beginning its down stroke. At this time, the flamefront drives the piston through the entire stroke, instead of "most" of the stroke.

Scenario 3. High compression or boost...
Now, the piston is on its way up again. This time, there's a hell of a lot more air/fuel in the cylinder. Its being squeezed very hard. This increased compression squeezing more air and fuel together is an excellent recipe for releasing energy. The piston nears TDC once more, and the spark plug fires. This time, the flamefront travels much faster consuming air and fuel particles as it heads for the piston. Well, the piston isn't ready for the flamefront yet. It's still at TDC. But, the flamefront doesn't care, it just slams that piston. But, the piston can't push the crankshaft if its at TDC, can it? All that energy does not turn the crankshaft, but instead bends or breaks the internal parts.

This post is very long, and I'm sorry for that. But by taking you inside the cylinder and showing you what happens, its easier to understand how it works. The spark only has to be hot enough to start the flamefront, any hotter and its not really doing anything. The only reason to increase the voltage is under higher cylinder pressures, so that the spark can be made, not so that it can be made hotter.

 

[rurouni20xx]

i see your points and i took that lesson in college yrs ago, what i meant by color of spark is if the spark is yellow its weak, when you add the a/f charge it doesnt go off at the right time or at all causing timing issues. a brilliant blue spark emits at the proper time under load and is consistent, its strong enuff to make the jump at the right time w/ the a/f hitting it. i asked if the voltage needed to be upped so it would jump at the right time under heavy load, you answered yes, which is what i needed to know. the rest is in the timing and tuning, and choosing a spark plug that would hold up to the extra pressure thats why i asked about the type core and if it would hold up to the extra pressure. the recommendation is a copper core plug, as platiunums tend to come apart under load, i will be using this and a slightly higher voltage rating, just to ensure proper timing under load. thanks for all the info and input. i still wonder about the iridium tips as they say they last longer, but ill see what others say after they experiment w/ them, ill stick to what has been tried and true.

 

[mazdabomber]

3.0 performance ignitions

http://www.performancedistributors.com/fordtruckv6.htm
check out this website i have put the screamin deamon ignition live wires and autolite platnum set to .056and its n/a but i noticed a big power increas in the lower rpm and it revs faster from 4-6 grand.. i think it will be a good upgrade for when i install the remote turbo and with a good tune ur stroker would benefit from it
plus no one else makes an ignition for our 3.0s!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rurouni20xx]

these parts are for obd2 units (95-96 and up trks), i have an older eec4 unit (94 and under) that still uses the old style distributor.

 

[SlipYoke]

WOW Ridiculous

Boy there sure are a lot of people who love to type a damn book about forced induction and have never done it themselves. I can surf forums all day too and use my amature mechanicals skills to type up a page worth of advice to someone who really really has no clue. Come on. Stop trying to do stuff to your ranger thats down right rediculous and then come on here and let these weekend mechanics feed you BS on a spoon. Great website though for someone who is actually trying to fix their ranger. SlipYoke

 

[Gotta_gofast]

Boy there sure are a lot of people who love to type a damn book about forced induction and have never done it themselves. I can surf forums all day too and use my amature mechanicals skills to type up a page worth of advice to someone who really really has no clue. Come on. Stop trying to do stuff to your ranger thats down right rediculous and then come on here and let these weekend mechanics feed you BS on a spoon. Great website though for someone who is actually trying to fix their ranger. SlipYoke

You're right, I don't have any first hand experience with forced induction, but the "book" I wrote applies to how the ignition system works to those who may not understand. You are welcome to prove me wrong. Increased cylinder pressure can be a result of either changing the compression ratio so that the "squeeze" creates more resistance or simply forcing more air/fuel into the cylinder. They behave similarly, with forced induction usually being more extreme. It took more than a weekend to get my 306ci ranger to where it is today.

 

[rurouni20xx]

like i said b4, im looking for 2 cents, not credit card opinions. im looking to build, not be an authority, im just asking around for experience, and looking to see what works. btw, what i do w/ MY ranger and MY money is MY business. dont tell ME what to do w/ MY stuff...last guy who did is still in the toolbox...and learn how to spell amateur b4 u write beef against experienced mechanics. i just so happen to be a certified technician that works at a dealership, i know what im doing, im simply asking for advice, cant ppl do that in peace these days?

 

[Viper Command]

I would use these few things that make the most diffrence.
nology wires, better spark
platnum 1 plugs, reliable spark
ajustable crank and or cam position sensor, retard timing for boost