Dual clutch transmissions.

[Dirtman]

Never buy one.

That is all.

 

[Curious Hound]

But they're s'posed to be a good thing. What happened. Your non-Ranger vehicle broke?

 

[Dirtman]

At the dealer for new clutches after 9,251 miles.... under warranty obviously, which is good since if it wasn't I would have just rolled it into the river. Whole engine and transmission need to be pulled to do the job. They told me 1-2 weeks.

But when I bought the little crap mobile I specifically asked, are the damn transmission issues fixed on these things yet? I knew previous years had TSBs and even a recall, I was assured all the transmission issues were fixed long ago and nothing rolling off a 2017 assembly line should have any issues.

It's funny too because when I bring my Lincoln mkx in for work of any kind I'm treated like a king. I get a free rental, they wash it, super nice. Bring a ford fiesta in and they basically just start pissing on you as you walk through the door. (ITS EVEN A SEPERATE DOOR!)

 

[adsm08]

At the dealer for new clutches after 9,251 miles.... under warranty obviously, which is good since if it wasn't I would have just rolled it into the river. Whole engine and transmission need to be pulled to do the job. They told me 1-2 weeks.

You are taking it to the wrong place.

I could see a week or so to actually lay hands on the new clutch. Engine does NOT have to come out, not by a long shot.

As for actual time to replace one, by best run is 2.5 hours from the time the work order hit my hands until I drove out the door for the post-repair road test. It's been a few years, so I'm guess my time would be closer to 4.5 hours if I did one tomorrow.

FWIW, after seven years in service, I do not believe that the issues with the DPS6 transmission will EVER be resolved.

 

[Dirtman]

I took it back to the dealer I bought it from... I had assumed alot of the time they quoted me was parts shipping time. Even if they did have to pull the engine (what I was told) that thing can be out in 30 minutes. Not sure how they do it without pulling the engine to be honest. It's a tiny mouse engine but I cant see a good way to get the trans apart without pulling it. Zero experience working on a dual clutch though...

I dont care about this car, I will never work on this car, when the warranty is up this car will be in a demolition derby. It cost 12 grand and has a 5 year warranty. But I had hoped it would effin make it to 5 years!

I'm honestly considering just getting a korean car next time for my cheapo beater. Before the fiesta I had a cavalier that made it to 190k before it rotted to the point of collapse. My sister still has the Kia she bought in college and as much as I enjoy insulting it.... it still runs fine.

 

[Dirtman]

So to update, called to ask what was going and get some clarification. This time the service advisor said they are just doing a software update to fix the problem. I know very little about these transmissions so I have no ground to argue. But the thing was shifting like someone was smashing it in and out of gear with a sledge hammer. I dunno if software can fix that and even if it can... by the time I got it home, and the way it was shifting, there must be damage to something internal.

I explained this and kind of ranted that I'm not taking it back if I'm not satisfied because you were to lazy to actually inspect it for damage. But I know service advisors are just a link in a chain so I was polite about it and even said I'm not trying to yell at you. (When you work in retail or customer service you gain respect for these people). But my fear is they do the software update and get me by and then 2 days after my warranty expires the thing implodes from damage they should be fixing now.

I'm suppose to get a call back tomorrow after the tech fiddles with it and let me know if they are gonna open it up or just claim the software fixes it.

Like to know your opinion since you seem to have delt with these turd transmissions @adsm08

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

You are taking it to the wrong place.

I could see a week or so to actually lay hands on the new clutch. Engine does NOT have to come out, not by a long shot.

As for actual time to replace one, by best run is 2.5 hours from the time the work order hit my hands until I drove out the door for the post-repair road test. It's been a few years, so I'm guess my time would be closer to 4.5 hours if I did one tomorrow.

FWIW, after seven years in service, I do not believe that the issues with the DPS6 transmission will EVER be resolved.

If it is any consolation I don't think a new replacement clutch/transmission/whatever will fix your car permanatly...

 

[Dirtman]

Oh I'm well aware. I just read there's a class action lawsuit against ford for this stupid transmission.

From what I've been internet "researching" it's because they were cheap and went with a dry clutch instead of wet... again I know very little about dual clutch transmissions. I know the damn thing is like a rocket if you go in a straight line. Nothing shifts faster. NOTHING. No automatic no matter the shift kit, and the best foot in the world cant change gears as fast as a dual clutch.

But the problem is the computer needs to guess your next gear when actually driving on the road and it often doesn't guess correctly. Resulting in nonsense. Even in sport mode, the computer still has to control what gear its selects for the next shift. There is no real manual control. Great drag racing transmission... other than that its effin stupid.

 

[adsm08]

I took it back to the dealer I bought it from... I had assumed alot of the time they quoted me was parts shipping time. Even if they did have to pull the engine (what I was told) that thing can be out in 30 minutes. Not sure how they do it without pulling the engine to be honest. It's a tiny mouse engine but I cant see a good way to get the trans apart without pulling it. Zero experience working on a dual clutch though...

The clutch actually bolts to a flex plate like a torque converter, you only need to scoot the trans about an inch away from the engine and it can come straight down.

This is a picture of your clutch assembly. The little hub in the middle is what the one clutch and the inner input shaft engages to, and then the other clutch splines directly onto the outer output shaft, so the clutch comes out in the trans like a torque converter on an automatic, do you don't have to pull the engine and trans nearly as far from each other to get them disengaged as you do on a traditional manual trans.

Then Ford made this slick little holding tool that clips onto the sub frame like a hanging high chair and has a pedestal that holds the engine up. Looks like this, but a little different:

So to update, called to ask what was going and get some clarification. This time the service advisor said they are just doing a software update to fix the problem. I know very little about these transmissions so I have no ground to argue. But the thing was shifting like someone was smashing it in and out of gear with a sledge hammer. I dunno if software can fix that and even if it can... by the time I got it home, and the way it was shifting, there must be damage to something internal.

I explained this and kind of ranted that I'm not taking it back if I'm not satisfied because you were to lazy to actually inspect it for damage. But I know service advisors are just a link in a chain so I was polite about it and even said I'm not trying to yell at you. (When you work in retail or customer service you gain respect for these people). But my fear is they do the software update and get me by and then 2 days after my warranty expires the thing implodes from damage they should be fixing now.

I'm suppose to get a call back tomorrow after the tech fiddles with it and let me know if they are gonna open it up or just claim the software fixes it.

Like to know your opinion since you seem to have delt with these turd transmissions @adsm08

To say that I have "dealt with" these transmissions is a bit of an understatement. My last service manager had a very strict rule about getting tools and tool kits back on their shelf in the tool room at the end of each job. The tool kits to work on these clutches and transmissions lived in my bay, with his blessing, if that gives you an idea of how often I was doing these things.

While the clutch system itself is rather problematic the transmission internals are rather robust. I have only seen one suffer an internal failure that warranted an overhaul. In that instance I suspect a TCM failure caused it to try shifting when it shouldn't have (customer was complaining of grinding) and allowed metal chips from a ground synchro to get blown through the whole system, eventually damaging the speed gears. In my opinion it is quite unlikely that the transmission itself has suffered any actual damage.

I actually don't even believe that the clutches themselves are all that problematic. I think the real issues lie in the transmission control module, which appears to be sensitive to heat, and is bolted to the side of the transmission as it directly controls the gear selection, and that the software is unable to adapt to normal clutch wear appropriately. However, until Ford gets some good software engineers, and not the goobers they have, this will never be fixed.


The TCM is in control of the gear selection (1-6 and R) and does the clutching. It has four motors it can use to do this. Two are built directly into the TCM, and have little pinion gears that stick into the side of the trans to actuate "clock gears" (they really do look like they are out of a clock) that work on cams attached to the shift forks in the gear clusters. These work similarly to the shift motors in our electric transfer cases, and are used to select the gear.

Then out near the bell housing there are two other motors that are connected to the clutch forks, and are used to control the clutch application, just like your left foot should be doing. The TCM can turn these motors individually, and at any speed it likes, and can monitor the clutch's engagement by watching the RPM signal from the crank sensor. As it sees the engine start to slow it begins to modulate the clutch position until you are moving fast enough to fully engage it, just like when you slip the clutch in a manual trans during take off.

The problem comes because the RPM signal is relayed through the PCM, as far as I know the TCM doesn't have direct access to the CKP signal, so it doesn't quite get the info in real time, and then the software doesn't adapt well to normal wear of the clutches, and so it modulates it poorly, engaging and disengaging too fast or slow during shifts, which is what causes the shudder. This all happens on a regular manual trans too, but an experienced driver feels it happen and fixes it on the fly, without ever thinking about it. The TCM can't feel it the same way we can, and can't compensate as easily.

The transmission adaptive relearn makes sure the trans range sensor is calibrated correctly, then runs the shift drums for the gear selection to both ends of the travel to make sure they are indexed correctly and that is knows where the stops are. Then the last step is to erase the TCM's learned clutch positions and do what is called a "touch point" test, which is where you hold the throttle against the rev limiter while the TCM moves the clutches in slowly until the engine load starts going up, to determine where the clutches are worn to, and how far they need to be let in to engage.

I have seen the adaptive relearn take transmissions that were shifting so hard we thought they would tear mounts and make them shift so smooth it was like a traditional automatic.

Also, with a concern like yours they will (pronounced "supposed to" inspect the bell housing area for fluid leakage, which can cause shudder, and also go for a road test and record the shudder events after the adaptive relearn, and then calculate what the actual shudder is with an accelerator position between 18-30%.

If you have ForScan you can get into the TCM PIDs, watch ISS_RAW_A and ISS_RAW_B, and APP%. The maximum allowable shudder in that 18-30% throttle window is 250 RPM drop, so if you can record the shudder event as a bar graph and then find the high and low points and do some subtraction, so you get an idea of if your clutch is actually bad or not.

 

[sgtsandman]

Nissan has been going through the same crap with their CVT transmissions. No matter what model of car you get, of it has a CVT, it’s going to be a problem.

Renault really screwed Nissan over when they bought them.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Oh I'm well aware. I just read there's a class action lawsuit against ford for this stupid transmission.

From what I've been internet "researching" it's because they were cheap and went with a dry clutch instead of wet... again I know very little about dual clutch transmissions. I know the damn thing is like a rocket if you go in a straight line. Nothing shifts faster. NOTHING. No automatic no matter the shift kit, and the best foot in the world cant change gears as fast as a dual clutch.

From what I have heard about them over the years a hydrostat out of a lawn mower would be an improvement.

Even the craptacular A4LD wasn't too bad if you kept them cool...

 

[adsm08]

Nissan has been going through the same crap with their CVT transmissions. No matter what model of car you get, of it has a CVT, it’s going to be a problem.

Renault really screwed Nissan over when they bought them.

These aren't CVTs, and Renault screwed everyone when he designed the drum brake.