Ammonia fueled Ranger project is now on the road

[ryan]

just for fun i ran some basic models - this assumes a relatively large quantity of ammonia - 20 gals - and without reading specifics of your project i dont know how reasonable this is. assuming that you're fueling a vehicle exclusively with ammonia this doesnt seem like an unreasonable amount, but i'm guessing this would be the upper limit of reasonability. the results are sobering

Vapor cloud

Overpressure zone if it blows

 

[Simple_serf]

Damn

I had to take some safety classes on Amonnia for refrigeration (why, I don't know, we use 404a. I had been around some large systems before that point though)... The ONLY thing I like about these systems is that they are usually built like a tank, and are pretty reliable.

I do know that jamestown Bolck Ice had a leak a few years ago (one large ammona system I had been around), and they were fined a HUGE amount of $$$ for not fixing it immediately.

 

[Hazmat Ranger]

Just a side note to ryans models - the threshold limit value (TLV) for ammonia is 25ppm. ppm = parts per million in the air. The yellow zone - definite injury to the eyes and respiratory system. The orange and red zones - death. So while it may have its uses as a cooling agent - there is no denying it is deadly.

 

[ryan]

Just a side note to ryans models - the threshold limit value (TLV) for ammonia is 25ppm. ppm = parts per million in the air. The yellow zone - definite injury to the eyes and respiratory system. The orange and red zones - death. So while it may have its uses as a cooling agent - there is no denying it is deadly.

and without a specific location i ran them with a slight breeze, mild temperatures, and moderate sunshine and humidity

basically, depending on atmospheric conditions, you'd be looking at a 500 yard death zone

with specifics i can put out a more realistic model, but regardless, traveling with large quantities of ammonia is very dangerous, and is probably illegal (for very good reason)

 

[Simple_serf]

I should find out how much you can legally transport without a Hazmat endorsement. I may be needing about a gallon for a project (Icyball!!!!), although I may be able to distill my own for that project.

I know that there are major restrictions on transporting Anhydrous for fertilizer use.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

with specifics i can put out a more realistic model, but regardless, traveling with large quantities of ammonia is very dangerous, and is probably illegal (for very good reason)

I know it isn't uncommon to see a half ton pickup pulling two tanks down the highway for fertilizer, struggling for every bit of speed they can muster... with no trailer brakes or tongue weight to speak of. Evidently you don't REALLY need a 3/4 ton unless you are pulling two double tanks.

 

[WildSide]

just for fun i ran some basic models - this assumes a relatively large quantity of ammonia - 20 gals - and without reading specifics of your project i dont know how reasonable this is. assuming that you're fueling a vehicle exclusively with ammonia this doesnt seem like an unreasonable amount, but i'm guessing this would be the upper limit of reasonability. the results are sobering

Vapor cloud

Overpressure zone if it blows

Interesting graphs Ryan although catastrophic failure would be an unlikely scenario. This toroidal tank has a capacity of 35 liters (and yes 20 US gallons could be used if not for the size) This tank does carry a DOT certificate. There is published data written by the US Department of energy related to NH3 you also may be interested in reading up on.

 

[Hazmat Ranger]

So the Rail cars carrying Anhydrous Ammonia around our great nation must never EVER have an incident where there are releases, or catastrophic failures? WOW those must be the best cars ever built - NOT. An unlikely scenario, maybe you have been around the NH3 too much already, I know it has Chronic Health Effects to the respiratory as well as Acute Health Effect, but I did not know it effects the nervous system specifically brain tissue.
ANY transport container on ANY highway or roadway has the "POTENTIAL" for a catastrophic failure. While the possibility of the tank just failing while sitting there undisturbed is truly unlikely, what about the "POTENTIAL" for an accident? Someone runs a red light one day, t-bones your vehicle severing the supply lines spewing forth a toxic cloud. Even if the accident may have not killed you, at that proximity the gas will. There is always the possibility that an incident could occur, why do you think Emergency Response Agencies train for 40 hours for initial HAZMAT certification, then attend additional courses that specialize in products such as NH3.
So, does this vehicle have dead man fill valves, double redundancy safety valves, pressure relief valves, and excess flow valves? And does the DOT certificate certify the tank for the storage AND transportation of NH3 and is the Hydrostatic Test date current as well?
Enough said, I'll just wait for the news reports . . .

 

[WildSide]

Hazmat you must somehow think that this is the first project vehicle on the road, well it's not and the technology developed through the three companies involved is not something simply picked off the shelf either. If you have worries concerning this one tank then perhaps you should do some research on the 20 million plus tones used annually and the more than 3 thousand miles of NH3 pipelines within the US just for a start. Last time I checked the USA was still on the map

 

[ryan]

Hazmat you must somehow think that this is the first project vehicle on the road, well it's not and the technology developed through the three companies involved is not something simply picked off the shelf either. If you have worries concerning this one tank then perhaps you should do some research on the 20 million plus tones used annually and the more than 3 thousand miles of NH3 pipelines within the US just for a start. Last time I checked the USA was still on the map

...which is why there are rules regarding the transportation of hazardous materials

have you seen a book of pipeline regs before?

the model that i showed isn't a catastrophic failure - that's what would happen if something punched a moderate hole in the tank. i think i set it up for a 4" hole near the top of the tank for simplicity

design for failures, not for BAU

 

[Hazmat Ranger]

I have researched and I do research every day on issues of this type and others related to Emergency Response and the Transport of Hazardous Materials - specifically Toxic Inhalation Hazards (TIH) such as NH3.
Personally this is the first time I have heard of this type of tank "IN THE US" and I have done a search through US DOT and PHMSA and neither list a toroidal tank in their specifications. I am NOT saying there is not a specification for it, in the short time since I have read about it, I have been unable to locate any reference to this type of tank as being approved to transport this material. I have seen some listings for LPG conversions in the UK but so far nothing in the US as an approved container for the storage and transportation of NH3. To help clarify the issue of the tank certification - what is the US DOT number stamped into the tank and not the TC SP number (Transport Canada).

 

[Hazmat Ranger]

ryan - that tank looks like a doughnut and CAMEO does not give us the options for it. Probably since it has not been used extensively as a transport container in the US. That I know of - LOL.

 

[ryan]

ryan - that tank looks like a doughnut and CAMEO does not give us the options for it. Probably since it has not been used extensively as a transport container in the US. That I know of - LOL.

i didnt even pay attention to that part of the post at first

i'd suspect that there's not a real DOT process for transporting ammonia in a tank like that - maybe LPG

but LPG is a totally different beast

 

[MAKG]

Hazmat you must somehow think that this is the first project vehicle on the road, well it's not and the technology developed through the three companies involved is not something simply picked off the shelf either. If you have worries concerning this one tank then perhaps you should do some research on the 20 million plus tones used annually and the more than 3 thousand miles of NH3 pipelines within the US just for a start. Last time I checked the USA was still on the map

Dude, stop NOW.

You have FAR more confidence in three unnamed companies AND yourself than you should.

That it is not "off the shelf" is a VERY bad thing. It means you have to analyze failure probabilities and mitigate them if they are too large. You clearly have not done so. Take this thing off the road and dispose of the ammonia safely, before you kill large numbers of people.

That there can be a DOT sticker for automotive transportation of ammonia is just ridiculous. A DOT sticker for another purpose doesn't count. Not all gasses and not all configurations represent the same risks.

You are being CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT. Stop now, before someone dies.

 

[WildSide]

Makg don't be criminally ignorant, this is not a typical back yard project. This vehicle has been inspected and has been certified otherwise insurance could not be obtained. The companies involved have over 25 years of experience in this field where as you have zero.

FYI emissions have now been reduced to 25% of the equivalent hydrocarbon fueled engine, before you start your foreseeable BS statement come visit the conference this fall.
http://www.energy.iastate.edu/Renewable/ammonia/ammonia/ammoniaMtg08.htm