2.3L ('83-'97) 85 Ranger, Engine concerns (2)

[Bei]

Okay, I know the title isn't very descriptive, but there is a bit going on here....

TL;DR - skip to 'so now' item 1, below. That is where I need help now.

I have two rangers, an '85 and an '86. Both have the I4 2.3L Lima with EFI. The '85 is an automatic, while the '86 is a manual. both are RWD, one tank - pretty much the usual standard. We are presently working on the '85. Once it is running, we will switch to the '86 which is in far worse condition due to sitting for over 20 years.

A bit of history:
I used to have an '86 Ranger that was my vehicle through most of high school and college. As I was moving out-of-state with my then wife and the truck couldn't come safely, we left it with my dad.

It "broke". I still don't know how. He decided it needed a new engine so he found a cheap '85. Drove it. Crashed it. And then like the '86, parked and left it.

My sister was working to clean up the family house and asked me to get both of them. So I did. The '85 actually ran. Sort of. It turns out it was burning more fuel than expected and had a "broken gas gauge". The A4LD transmission in it was in rough shape too. And I made the mistake in a moment of stress to have it rebuilt. When it was... the guy who did it "found something odd" in the engine (he won't say what) and "fixed it".

Driving home... it would die when hot. Need time to cool, and then rinse and repeat. I believed it to be the TFI, so I bought another and replaced it. Somehow, this sort of made things worse.... and then other things broke....

My neighbor and I have been working on it the past few weeks. The primary take away is actually learning a lot about such engines. We found the sender unit was shot and "welded" in place by rust. So, new tank, new sender. Gas flowed, yet still no start. Pulled fuel injectors and when messing with them, the cap broke on one. Old, brittle plastic. What the hell - replaced the injectors.

Now she is back to where she was when I replaced the TFI....

So, now:
(1) She won't really "start". She will, but she is bucking like a bronco and only runs for a second or two. It FEELS like timing. Like the gas and air are delivered, but not at the same time as the spark. She is an EFI, and so you can't really change the timing per the literature. It is supposed to do that on its own. Looking through literature and what I can find, it seems like there are a lot of different possibilities, and so I am lost. THIS is the first problem! The one I need immediate help on.

(2) This second is the one to "wait and see". The problem described above. I don't know if changing the TFI would solve the "when heated" problem. There is one other aspect here too - one of the screws dropped and I can't find it! Where can I get a replacement? I see the head size on the Ford tool for it - 7/32" hex head - but no idea on the thread or the length. One does hold it just fine for now, but I would rather not have another unknown!

Anyone have an idea what is going on? Any suggestions to try?

Other information that might matter:
I have been replacing other parts as well, and here is a list:
- All four fuel injectors
- Fuel Pressure Regulator
- Distributor Cap
- Distributor Rotor
- Ignition wiring
- All four spark plugs
- gas tank
- low pressure fuel pump/sender unit
- ignition coil
and of course, the TFI.

My present plan is to get the '85 running and then move to the '86. The '85 will act as a "utility vehicle" and the goal with the '86 is to restomod it. At present, I am looking at keeping almost everything standard. However, I am also considering an engine swap - especially if the engine is a complete loss. Yet for now, the '85.

 

[JoshT]

(1) She won't really "start". She will, but she is bucking like a bronco and only runs for a second or two. It FEELS like timing. Like the gas and air are delivered, but not at the same time as the spark. She is an EFI, and so you can't really change the timing per the literature. It is supposed to do that on its own. Looking through literature and what I can find, it seems like there are a lot of different possibilities, and so I am lost. THIS is the first problem! The one I need immediate help on.

It will adjust timing to an extent, but base timing still has to be set. First you need to ensure that the cam to crank timing is stil correct. Once that is good, check your distributor and ensure that it is set of proper base timing. From there the EFI system will advance and retard timing. There is only so much range that it is able to "self adjust" in, so if base timing is off, everything else will be.

 

[Bei]

It will adjust timing to an extent, but base timing still has to be set. First you need to ensure that the cam to crank timing is stil correct. Once that is good, check your distributor and ensure that it is set of proper base timing. From there the EFI system will advance and retard timing. There is only so much range that it is able to "self adjust" in, so if base timing is off, everything else will be.

I just wanted to note that I have not forgotten about this at all.
I was able to walk out on Sunday and just test. She started. She hasn't for a long time. She is running rough though, so we are thinking base timing. My neighbor and I are looking at doing that probably this weekend when he is available.

Thank you for responding and giving me this advice. I'll let you know as things progress.

As it stands:
- She will start and she will run.
- She runs rough, and sometimes needs a bit of gas to keep going. These times are not at set intervals, but spacing is about 30s to 1 minute in range.
- Revs are hit or miss. She will rev some, but then just dies.
- I have not put her under any load yet. Only ran her with the transmission in park so far.

If you have anything to add or other advice, please do! Right now, I suspect that getting her base timing right might be the key to finally getting her going.

Even better if I get her working before 4 August. That is when my father - now 92 - will be visiting and maybe I can just hand him the keys for a joy ride!

Thank you again!

 

[Bei]

So, update:
- She has been running better each time I've started her.
- When INITIALLY started, she runs well and with good idle. She may have a periodic miss. My friend helping me told me that he had dropped one of her plugs and thinks that might be the cause, so I'm going to buy a new set. again. If it doesn't change anything, I still have another truck that will need them.
- When rev'd she sounds like a Harley! Not even, what sounds like misses - just not happy.
- After about 30 seconds, she switches from her cold circuit to her running circuit and that is when the behavior mentioned above happens. She doesn't want to idle well.

We did pull her out and drove around the block.
- going up the hill - no power. Pushing on the gas, she had very little acceleration yet plenty of what felt like misses.
- On the way down, she just seemed like she was on the edge of dying. No load on the engine and very bad idle.

A neighbor who has worked on a lot of things came by to take a look. He noted that the throttle body is in pretty bad shape and may need to be replaced. He told me to clean it up first and check it, so it is off for me to do that. He also suggested that one of the sensors such as the MAP may be bad, so I will be looking at checking that.

He indicated that many of these vehicles don't use the sensor data so much when they start. This is the cold circuit. Instead, they adjust to a richer run to give the engine some time to warm up before using the sensor data to adjust everything. If this is the case, it explains the present behavior, and does point to either a bad sensor, or something blocked in the throttle body to give bad data. Hence why he recommended a clean up to the throttle body and even to look over a few other parts such as the idle speed controller. Any place the sensor circuit may be fouled in some way or the sensor itself bad.

Otherwise, timing is presently good. She has excellent spark. Fuel delivery is good. So, air delivery, damage to one of the plugs, and the sensors are where we are looking now.

It feels SOOOOO close!

 

[scotts90ranger]

I would find the "SPOUT" connector which is just a 2 pin grey jumper near the distributor and disconnect that and get a timing light and set the timing to whatever the core support sticker says

A broken spark plug would not help a thing

The MAP sensor has a vacuum hose leading to it, don't remember where it's mounted but is about 1/2 the size of a deck of cards with a 3 wire connector, make sure that vacuum hose isn't broken

The throttle body cleaning shouldn't make a huge difference at this stage, the only thing on it it uses is the throttle position sensor but that's just to let it know it's at idle or wide open for the most part.

The oxygen sensor is likely shot, they're cheap anymore but whether it will come out of the exhaust manifold or not is another thing...

The way the fuel system works is at startup it goes off of rpm and coolant temperature mostly, once it's over like 400rpm it starts looking at the MAP sensor to monitor engine load and adjust the spark advance and fueling appropriately based on tables in the computer. Once it's warmed up some it adds in the signal from the oxygen sensor to the mix to modify the fueling a little bit

It would run like garbage if the hose to the MAP sensor was leaking... would run rich and probably have not much spark advance if I had to guess.

 

[Bei]

I would find the "SPOUT" connector which is just a 2 pin grey jumper near the distributor and disconnect that and get a timing light and set the timing to whatever the core support sticker says

A broken spark plug would not help a thing

The MAP sensor has a vacuum hose leading to it, don't remember where it's mounted but is about 1/2 the size of a deck of cards with a 3 wire connector, make sure that vacuum hose isn't broken

The throttle body cleaning shouldn't make a huge difference at this stage, the only thing on it it uses is the throttle position sensor but that's just to let it know it's at idle or wide open for the most part.

The oxygen sensor is likely shot, they're cheap anymore but whether it will come out of the exhaust manifold or not is another thing...

The way the fuel system works is at startup it goes off of rpm and coolant temperature mostly, once it's over like 400rpm it starts looking at the MAP sensor to monitor engine load and adjust the spark advance and fueling appropriately based on tables in the computer. Once it's warmed up some it adds in the signal from the oxygen sensor to the mix to modify the fueling a little bit

It would run like garbage if the hose to the MAP sensor was leaking... would run rich and probably have not much spark advance if I had to guess.

I very much appreciate this, and I will be looking these things over as soon as I am able to.

The reason for the spark concern is that there is missing. We know the coil is good, yet if there is damage to the plug, it may not always be firing.

I will check again for the SPOUT connector, yet it does not appear to be part of the timing, at least per the instructions up front.

Based on the process you have described, the sensors are the most likely problem. The O2 sensor - while not expensive - seems to be fairly difficult to deal with per the shop manual. What you say about the MAP sensor seems a pretty close match to how she is acting.

As to the cleaning, I agree with your assessment. Yet it is something we can easily do and check out versus doing even more swapping of parts. That said, I'm going to be ordering more parts from RockAuto, even though it means more money pushed that way.

After all, my biggest motivation right now is the learning experience - and I am getting quite a bit of that now!

Again, thank you.

 

[scotts90ranger]

On the oxygen sensor, it should be on the exhaust manifold if memory serves either one or 3 wires on it (don't know the switch, I know the switch to 4 wire was in mid '90). Take an open ended 7/8" wrench and see if you can loosen it about 1/4 turn, if you can it'll come out easy and I'd change it, if it doesn't budge and you're starting to mess up the hex on the sensor you're going to need to use fancier stuff like an oxygen sensor socket and possibly a propane torch or even more dumb...

 

[Bei]

On the oxygen sensor, it should be on the exhaust manifold if memory serves either one or 3 wires on it (don't know the switch, I know the switch to 4 wire was in mid '90). Take an open ended 7/8" wrench and see if you can loosen it about 1/4 turn, if you can it'll come out easy and I'd change it, if it doesn't budge and you're starting to mess up the hex on the sensor you're going to need to use fancier stuff like an oxygen sensor socket and possibly a propane torch or even more dumb...

Rockauto has them:

More Information for NTK 22014

And it is on the exhaust manifold, lower rear. I've add it - and a special tool (about $7) to a list of parts I'm ordering for it and the other Ranger we'll start on soon. I'd send the diagram showing the location, but it is in a book I have. I might post it later.

 

[scotts90ranger]

That's where I expected it to be.

The O2 sensor socket does help if they're really tight, I don't have one at home but have access to them at work, I've been lucky enough on my own projects that an open ended wrench is enough torque... at work I've had them shear threads and stuff so I do know how bad it can get...

 

[tomw]

If it did not start running right, a few notes on 85 2.3's.
-you can set the base timing to 10BTDC by disconnecting the 'single wire connector near the distributor' and rotating the distributor. Obviously loosen the hold down bolt. If you run into the intake or something in the other direction, and can't get to 10BTDC, you can remove the hold down, and move the rotor a tooth or two in the direction to correct the timing. Easier if you set the crank timing marks to TDC, pull the cap and note the rotor position before loosening and removing.
The MAP sensor will give a hot idle that is as stable as a unicycle rider who has consumed a fifth of Jim Beam. To say unstable is being nice.
The MAP diddles with the timing and injector pulse as it informs the computer about engine load. High vacuum==low engine load, and low vacuum==high engine, so being incorrect wil make it idle very poorly and can also prevent a 'start stall start stall start stall'. I KNOW.
The coil used - E-coil - is pretty reliable, but cheap if you want to replace. Check plug wires using a VOM. If you get Ol indicator on digita, replace the wire. They should be ballpark 12k per foot... or similar, but no opens. They can cause you to think you have a dying engine if they are failing. They can look PERFECT but be garbage. I KNOW. I pulled my injectors thinking they were clogging intermittently. Not. Plug wires. And they were replacements that had never been abused by sharp bends, etc. It was a LIGHT SHOW under hood after dark. New wires helped a LOT.
The pressure regulator can fail and feed fuel via the vacuum line. It can also fail and set the pressure high. Fuel economy will suck. You can check by disconnecting the vacuum line on an idling engine. The pressure would jump on the gauge, and fall back when the vacuum is re-connected if the regulator is working properly.
Cleaning the throttle body and throttle plate area can improve idle if it starts to get erratic. The IAC can also be cleaned if your fast cold idle is not happening. Also IAT and ECT sensors can mess with idle, fooling the computer into adding fuel to a hot engine and denying fuel to a cold engine right after startup.
tom