CAFE standards... rolled back

[stmitch]

They need to stand up for something.

First they were all for EV's/mpg

Now no and they are throwing away all their investment

Knowing full good and well than in 3 years everything could switch again.

And with everybody wanting to use their own in house diesel it is kind of a uphill battle for Cat to really expand their marketshare. Freightliner has Detroit and Mercedes, Pete/KW has Paccar and Cummins catches the stragglers. They have enough going on I doubt they got hurt too much by losing that destraction.

Besides that everybody with a old Pete is still lining up to swap in a Cat anyway lol.

They stand up for making shareholders more money each quarter.

When the government is incentivizing consumer to buy EVs, and penalizing OEMs who don't make EVs, then by golly they make EVs. They chose super expensive ones because they had the highest profit, or perhaps "lost the least amount of money" is more accurate. If they had any kind of long term planning, they probably should've stuck to developing hybrids the whole time like Toyota did, but that would require looking further into the future than the next quarter or two. In general you don't fight government spending money because they can always print more.

Even before this latest decision, Ford lost tons of money scrapping plans for a 3 row EV SUV. They realized that EV isn't a great fit for the way that most people are using these large vehicles, but they got tons of credit from the gov for making them so it made sense. Until recently.

They haven't completely given up on EVs. Just the bigger, "Body on Frame" types of vehicles that often do lots of work. They've been developing a clean sheet, cheaper Universal EV platform for awhile, and that's still ongoing. The first vehicle to use it will be an inexpensive, mid-sized pickup due in 2027. They still have EVs for the rest of the world too in the mean time. Since Big Stonkin Trucks are mostly a North American phenomenon, they were able to axe them without much issue anywhere else. Moving forward is seems like we'll get smaller, cheaper EVs for regular car /light truck duty and EREVs for bigger vehicles to avoid range anxiety.

 

[superj]

My geo metro was a 91 and it was a 55mpg one too

 

[oldgeek]

I don't have anything against EV's, the main thing for me is that I have zero debt to my name at the present and most of my vehicles are in good shape so why would I take on a car loan in the name of saving the environment? I use my trucks for truck things...I have no use for a car or a stupid looking crossover, or even an SUV for that matter. So that leaves me with what, the F150 Lightning, a Cybertruck, or a couple GM electric trucks? Hard pass on ALL that. Just like taking out a second mortgage.

Those little Slate trucks are kind of appealing though, it would suit 99% of my non-super duty needs.

I like the concept of EV. Just not how it is implemented now. The only way I could see that they all haven't been taken off the market because of the fire hazard is because it was seen as something to fight climate change. I don't think they would have been on the market otherwise. But the thought of not having to deal with fuel and oil is nice. Just give it a reasonable charge time to a full charge, let it not "spontaneously" combust, and I'm game.

 

[Uncle Gump]

I don't think the auto manufacturers will forget what they learned... or even stop development of EV's.

I think it's more of a reset until we can ramp up our industry and infrastructure to fully support it.

Those vehicles are totally dependent on our largest adversary. We were fueling them to our own demise.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I don't think the auto manufacturers will forget what they learned... or even stop development of EV's.

I think it's more of a reset until we can ramp up our industry and infrastructure to fully support it.

Those vehicles are totally dependent on our largest adversary. We were fueling them to our own demise.

If nothing else I suspect a lot of the recent Lightning R&D will carry over into the hybrid truck though. So while the headlines make it sound like they threw away $2b a lot of that will likely be rolled over into the new model.

 

[pacstud]

Number two, I believe in free enterprise.

That's the catch. Free enterprise (kind of like economic socialism) doesn't really exist, and pretty much never has.

I think this is just the tragedy of the commons on a planetary scale. "Externalities" is just a nice word for suicide.

There is no incentive to stop polluting. Pollution is an external cost paid for by the future. There is no profit in taking care of our descendants. So unfortunately, market forces won't attend to them.

For me, the question isn't should the government do something, it's "What should we do?" Tough question with no easy answers. Regulation? Sure, but how much and what type?

I mean, end corporatism? Ha, good luck slaying that hydra.

 

[19Walt93]

Modern automotive trends... My thoughts.

Put on your tinfoil hats fellas..

ok my take, cars/ trucks are not going to go down in price. in addition to the cost there is a serious push by automakers to strip away or make it prohibitively expensive to work on your own vehicles, and even make it so interdependent shops cannot afford to own or are outright blocked from access to "proprietary" diagnostic equipment and tools. So in addition to the rising cost, you will now have to take your vehicle into a dealer or authorized dealer service center. To let you know how ridiculous car repair is getting, there is a car manufacture (can't remember which one, but Volvo is coming to mind) that you must hook the car's computer up to a diagnostic machine and put it into service mode to unpark the windshield wipers so that you can change the wiper blades. I am not making this up. The only reason for this kind of f***ery is dealer profit and service fees. The next one that is already being used by BMW and Toyota is subscription based accessories. Want heated seats? subscription. 8 bucks a month to warm your ass.

As we are now approaching the cost of vehicle ownership that most Americans cannot afford, I see leases becoming an option. instead of 800 dollar car payments for 8 years, you will see 4 year leases at 400 or 500 dollars where the consumer then has to repeat the cycle, often coming up with more cash down each time and nothing to show for at the end of the lease. I also see the lease scam going into used car markets. you will be able to lease a 3 to 5 year old car (or one just returned from a lease) for another 3 to 5 years. I also see another Cash for clunkers program in the next 10 years that is a bit more aggressive, as in you can no longer own a car older than 20 years old unless you meet certain criteria (less than x amount of miles driven a year, antique/ historic vehicle plates) so basically you will be forced into a modern car. Oh, and the modern car will have easily accessed remote drive/ shut down by officialdom. will require a warrant at first, but that will be removed at some point where you can be shut down anytime anywhere by police or governing agencies. (tech is already in place and has been for over 10 years... its coming).

So, in 30 to 40 years (and that will come faster than you think) the car buying model as we know it will be a lease that can only be serviced by authorized dealer service center. you want to "personalize" your car? you will be able to buy different wheels and tires, but must return the stock wheels at the end of the lease, in addition to removing your personalized badges and stickers from Autozone.

Keep an eye on the Right to Repair legislation, make sure your representatives are voting for that.
fuel of the future... I see a fuel cell type car as the future. Electric is to expensive and will cause too much strain on the infrastructure to be mainstreamed. but fuel cell tech can be rolled out much quicker. Honda did a fuel cell car that worked great back in 2009 or so, had all the bells and whistles. basically a near zero emissions car, once the infrastructure gets put in place and better safety systems are in place it will be as safe as a gasoline engine car and likely can be retrofitted into existing gasoline engines.

At some point when my migraine goes away from typing and thinking about this, I will have to give you my thoughts on the future of health care in the US..

AJ

The car companies don't give a rat's arse about dealer profits and wouldn't spend a dime to improve them. They spend a lot of R&D money to meet the ever changing federal standards and are probably trying to keep untrained independents from messing with them and causing problems that the car owner's would blame the vehicle for. In 35 years as service manager I saw it too many times to count.
I don't doubt what you said about Volvo, we had an F150 customer bring in her husband's Volvo for state inspection and it needed a front side marker bulb. She wanted us to replace the bulb but it looked like we'd have to remove the bumper to do it so I sent her to Volvo, thinking we were wrong and not wanting to waste her money. We were wrong, they removed the front fender to change a bulb.
I'm also not surprised at BMW and Toyota charging subscription fees to make options the customer has already paid for work. GM has been charging people for Onstar for years. Onstar has always had the ability to disable vehicles from a distance.

 

[19Walt93]

I also kind of get the vibe automakers don't really have a whole lot of a spine in their negotiations with the govt in general.

It ain't a negotiation, they have to comply with the laws.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

It ain't a negotiation, they have to comply with the laws.

But saying the govt asked them for their input makes everything sound better.

 

[19Walt93]

But saying the govt asked them for their input makes everything sound better.

Asking for input and listening to input are two different things.

 

[19Walt93]

My complaints with hybrids is the same as my complaints with EV's- first, in 8-9 years when the battery fails it will cost more than the value of the vehicle to replace. Second, electrocution hazard. My friend retired as a fire captain, I asked if he knew how many first responders had been killed at EV/hybrid accidents. He said he didn't know the number but there had been some- then he added that there had been some passengers, too. Panels get crunched and bent in wrecks and wires get pinched and cut. 12 volts shorted out is inconvenient, and electric F150's 480 volts shorted out is life threatening.

 

[pentode]

We need better battery tech. For cars and everything else.

Lithium batteries have a very impressive energy density - and they make _really_ impressive fires.

That's not to mention their very limited lifespan, sensitivity to heat etc. I do believe we're very close to some much better battery chemistries... But then we've been very close to fusion for about 50 years.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

We need better battery tech. For cars and everything else.

Lithium batteries have a very impressive energy density - and they make _really_ impressive fires.

That's not to mention their very limited lifespan, sensitivity to heat etc. I do believe we're very close to some much better battery chemistries... But then we've been very close to fusion for about 50 years.

This… the battery tech just isn’t supporting what we are trying to do with it…

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

Battery tech is always getting better. 10 years from now there will be better, cheaper batteries and older style ones will be cheaper too. Replacement batteries included.
Fires with gasoline engines are just as dangerous. New tech has, and still is, being developed to deal with battery fires.
If I could afford a new, or used vehicle, an EV or hybrid would be one of my first choices!

 

[pentode]

Battery tech is always getting better. 10 years from now there will be better, cheaper batteries and older style ones will be cheaper too. Replacement batteries included.
Fires with gasoline engines are just as dangerous. New tech has, and still is, being developed to deal with battery fires.
If I could afford a new, or used vehicle, an EV or hybrid would be one of my first choices!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not terrified of hybrid or electric cars - but I'm sure you've read the stories about fire departments using 7 tankers to put out an electric car fire, or cars that spontaneous burst into flames several days after being "extinguished". Yeah, these things are thankfully pretty rare and I'm sure we'll adapt.

I do think too much undeserved hype was built up around them (this current iteration) saving the planet. I accept that the trajectory we're on might get us there and there are going to be growing pains with any tech. Going back to the original theme though, I just don't think CAFE really did much good in the grand scheme of things, I think it gave us a lot of automotive "advancements" that made cars worse.