Best spark plug

[85_Ranger4x4]

I went through the whole tune up procedure a little while ago. Plenty of busted knuckles on the plugs. I went with Iridium plugs, E3s I think. The ones with the four point spark instead of one. Didn't notice much of a power increase but gas mileage went up 1 or 2 mpg and it idles a whole lot smoother than before. Plugs weren't really fouled or anything but I didn't know the last time they had been changed so I went with high quality the first time around and so far they work great.

Not to scare you or anything, but my brother changed a set of those out of a V-10 and a couple were missing several electrodes altogether...

None of those 4 are exactly the same distance from center electrode, so it is going to spark from the closest one.

I bet your milage gains are from replacing worn out plugs with new plugs... not because they have four electrodes.

 

[KELLY88]

Not to scare you or anything, but my brother changed a set of those out of a V-10 and a couple were missing several electrodes altogether...

None of those 4 are exactly the same distance from center electrode, so it is going to spark from the closest one.

I bet your milage gains are from replacing worn out plugs with new plugs... not because they have four electrodes.

I inspected each one, none were broken off. Ya I know it doesn't spark to each one but they worked nicely anyway. A friend of mine put them in his Bronco with a 351 and noticed some performance and mileage gain out them. I like them though, they have worked out nice and should last for a long time.

 

[Bob Ayers]

I inspected each one, none were broken off. Ya I know it doesn't spark to each one but they worked nicely anyway. A friend of mine put them in his Bronco with a 351 and noticed some performance and mileage gain out them. I like them though, they have worked out nice and should last for a long time.

The point that 85_ranger4X4 is making, is that the electrodes can break loose in the combustion chamber. If you aren't getting misfires, changing
plugs will not give you a performance and/or MPG increase!

 

[Big Jim M]

so I went with high quality the first time around and so far they work great.

No you didn't! You went for the bright yellow ads about how great those plugs are.. They posotively are NOT better than stock and prolly aren't the correct heat range for your engine!

If you see better anything it is because the OLD plugs were worn out! Putting a new set of stock plugs in there would have shown the same or MORE improvement.
Big JIm

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I inspected each one, none were broken off. Ya I know it doesn't spark to each one but they worked nicely anyway. A friend of mine put them in his Bronco with a 351 and noticed some performance and mileage gain out them. I like them though, they have worked out nice and should last for a long time.

These were broken off when the plugs came out of the engine, not the box.

 

[fixizin]

Remember the 4 ground electrodes is nothing but a marketing gimmick. You are still only going to get 1 spark........

So... all sparks are equal?... size, duration, temperature?

Let's dyno THAT.

 

[Big Jim M]

fixizin YES as far as the mixture is concerned..All sparks ARE equal! ANY spark will set off the burning of the fuel.. Thinking that "size, duration, temperature" is seeable by the mixture is obsurd!
Seeing a DISPLAY on the parts counter is only impressive to the novice viewer...NOT to the fuel mixture. A simple yellow spark will do the same thing in the cylinder as a BLOW TORCH!
In some cases the little yellow spark will FAIL above 6,000 rpm.. at THAT point it may become necessary to install a hotter coil to fire the plugs.. But below that number (or a number near that one) the engine don't know what coil is in there. AND the plug needs to be of a colder range as above that number it will heat up and cause preignition all by itself not needing a spark at all.
Big JIm

 

[fixizin]

fixizin YES as far as the mixture is concerned..All sparks ARE equal! ANY spark will set off the burning of the fuel.. Thinking that "size, duration, temperature" is seeable by the mixture is obsurd!
...
Big JIm

REE-hee-hee-ly... then one wonders why things like gap, electrode shape, voltage, wire condition, (and the crappiness of Bosch plugs) are so important? Something doesn't add up. Methinks Mechanical Engineers specializing in combustion would label YOUR assertion as... absurd?

OTOH I am a bad person, and cannot claim any erudition on the matter. Gap, torque, and go is my leitmotif.

 

[Big Jim M]

Fixizin You didn't address your own post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jim M
fixizin YES as far as the mixture is concerned..All sparks ARE equal! ANY spark will set off the burning of the fuel.. Thinking that "size, duration, temperature" is seeable by the mixture is obsurd!
...
Big JIm

REE-hee-hee-ly... then one wonders why things like gap, electrode shape, voltage, wire condition, (and the crappiness of Bosch plugs) are so important? Something doesn't add up. Methinks Mechanical Engineers specializing in combustion would label YOUR assertion as... absurd?

OTOH I am a bad person, and cannot claim any erudition on the matter. Gap, torque, and go is my leitmotif.

You wrote "size, duration, temperature" I replied specifically to that post.. And I AM CORRECT!

Then you change to " gap, electrode shape, voltage, wire condition" None of which matter much as long as the combination produces a small yellow spark into the mixture..

IF, however, one or more of the above PROHIBITS the small yellow spark then THAT specific part needs attention.

Gap: An incorrect gap can result in no mixture in too small of a gap...or too large a gap can tax the coil.

Electrode shape: Doesn't matter much as long as the shape allows fuel into the gap of the electrode. More than ONE electrode can cause preignition.

Voltage: Doesn't matter as long as the coil produces enough to make the spark.. All coils producing a spark in a similar gap will do so at or very near the same voltage.. Having EXTRA voltage available is useless.

Wire condition: Of course having too much resistance in a wire will cause inconsistent firing and the wire should be replaced.. However using huge heavy duty wires is useless as long as factory type wires pass the voltage, no gain will be seen.

Big Jim

 

[fixizin]

While one must not confuse or conflate relevant parameters, it's not quite clear to me just WHICH parameters ARE relevant, to wit:

Will a low-voltage ignition system from a 1970s smogged low-compression engine with .024 gapped plugs, producing its reliable small yellow (white?) spark, run just fine in a modern higher compression Ranger engine? I think NOT.

I also don't buy that fuel molecules in a compressed cylinder "charge" are so far apart that there might be none present in a .024" gap, but definitely some in a .044" gap... lol... your understanding of molecular size and spacing is off... by about 7 orders of magnitude.

Again, I can't speak on the subject beyond intuition and some long forgotten freshman chemistry, but I think it gets back vapor pressures, specific heat, surface-to-volume ratios, and the example where you can't light a 1" wooden dowel with a match, but if you have a propane torch, you can really set that sucker ablaze.

So... I'm left with my vague (but persistent) intuition that the SIZE, TEMPERATURE, and DURATION of the spark DO matter... but... I'm on vacation (w/out Ranger), and have neither the desire nor sobriety to actually PROVE it... lol.

The game is rigged, the fix... izz... in. Bet on the ringer.

 

[Big Jim M]

Oh fixizin!

While one must not confuse or conflate relevant parameters, it's not quite clear to me just WHICH parameters ARE relevant, to wit:

Will a low-voltage ignition system from a 1970s smogged low-compression engine with .024 gapped plugs, producing its reliable small yellow (white?) spark, run just fine in a modern higher compression Ranger engine? I think NOT.

I also don't buy that fuel molecules in a compressed cylinder "charge" are so far apart that there might be none present in a .024" gap, but definitely some in a .044" gap... lol... your understanding of molecular size and spacing is off... by about 7 orders of magnitude.

Again, I can't speak on the subject beyond intuition and some long forgotten freshman chemistry, but I think it gets back vapor pressures, specific heat, surface-to-volume ratios, and the example where you can't light a 1" wooden dowel with a match, but if you have a propane torch, you can really set that sucker ablaze.

So... I'm left with my vague (but persistent) intuition that the SIZE, TEMPERATURE, and DURATION of the spark DO matter... but... I'm on vacation (w/out Ranger), and have neither the desire nor sobriety to actually PROVE it... lol.

The game is rigged, the fix... izz... in. Bet on the ringer.

Without getting into a pissing match.. I'd like for you to read up a bit on when and why the gap was widened..

Everything I have written in this thread is gospel.. You can take it to the bank. I know intuition might tell you something else but it is like I said it is.

When engines got fuel injection the mixture was able to get much leaner. It was found in testing that these engines needed a wider gap to make certain there was enough combustable gas in the spark to ignite the flame..

Most modern engines have a rich-lean mixture.. meaning the mixture runs so lean that the engine would overheat the pistons/vlaves. So the computer gives a too rich "shot" of fuel as needed to cool off the chamber.. It is specefically in this lean period that the engine needs the wide gap.

If you do read up on this you will understand what your intuition cannot tell you.

Big JIm

 

[Bob Ayers]

While one must not confuse or conflate relevant parameters, it's not quite clear to me just WHICH parameters ARE relevant, to wit:

Will a low-voltage ignition system from a 1970s smogged low-compression engine with .024 gapped plugs, producing its reliable small yellow (white?) spark, run just fine in a modern higher compression Ranger engine? I think NOT.

I also don't buy that fuel molecules in a compressed cylinder "charge" are so far apart that there might be none present in a .024" gap, but definitely some in a .044" gap... lol... your understanding of molecular size and spacing is off... by about 7 orders of magnitude.

Again, I can't speak on the subject beyond intuition and some long forgotten freshman chemistry, but I think it gets back vapor pressures, specific heat, surface-to-volume ratios, and the example where you can't light a 1" wooden dowel with a match, but if you have a propane torch, you can really set that sucker ablaze.

So... I'm left with my vague (but persistent) intuition that the SIZE, TEMPERATURE, and DURATION of the spark DO matter... but... I'm on vacation (w/out Ranger), and have neither the desire nor sobriety to actually PROVE it... lol.

The game is rigged, the fix... izz... in. Bet on the ringer.

I don't know where you got your information from, but the "standard" plug gap back in the '70s was 0.032-0.035, NOT 0.024!!!! Big difference!!

The biggest advantage of electronic ignitions over point-type ignitions is "variable dwell angle" dependent on RPM. This keeps the primary coil current optimized.

 

[aggoodin]

Blah blah blah. I put NGK coppers in everything regardless of what it came with and don't miss a beat. I know the WORST plug ever is Bosch.

 

[fixizin]

I'd like for you to read up a bit on when and why the gap was widened...

OK, I *will*... part of my program to become a less-bad person... lol... I blame hot foreign wymins for "corrupting" me... LMAO...

But I still say you can't ignite a 1" diameter wooden dowel with a match. ;')

I don't know where you got your information from, but the "standard" plug gap back in the '70s was 0.032-0.035, NOT 0.024!!!! Big difference!!

Well, I definitely owned something with a 0.024" gap... probably a lawnmower or weed-whacker or small outboard put-put, and if so, that more strongly makes my point, i.e. it must've been making an ADEQUATE spark for THAT APPLICATION/combustion-chamber CONFIGURATION, right? Yet Big J claims ANY spark will ignite ANY fuel-air charge in ANY engine... I intuit it ain't so... just don't have the hard data... yet.

Dwell angles? Yep, more self-study... forgot duh little I knew, how it translates to spark "quality"... I blame MATLAB... and Swedish vodka.

 

[Big Jim M]

Here ya go fixizin!

I'd like for you to read up a bit on when and why the gap was widened...

OK, I *will*... part of my program to become a less-bad person... lol... I blame hot foreign wymins for "corrupting" me... LMAO...

But I still say you can't ignite a 1" diameter wooden dowel with a match. ;')

I don't know where you got your information from, but the "standard" plug gap back in the '70s was 0.032-0.035, NOT 0.024!!!! Big difference!!

Well, I definitely owned something with a 0.024" gap... probably a lawnmower or weed-whacker or small outboard put-put, and if so, that more strongly makes my point, i.e. it must've been making an ADEQUATE spark for THAT APPLICATION/combustion-chamber CONFIGURATION, right? Yet Big J claims ANY spark will ignite ANY fuel-air charge in ANY engine... I intuit it ain't so... just don't have the hard data... yet.

Dwell angles? Yep, more self-study... forgot duh little I knew, how it translates to spark "quality"... I blame MATLAB... and Swedish vodka.

I googled it for ya!:
Dwell angle is a measure of the duration of time that the primary circuit of the ignition system is closed to energize the primary windings of the coil. It expressed (and measured) in degrees of rotation of the distributor rotor, hence the use of the term "angle".

In actual operation, as the distributor mechanism rotates, the points (or electronic module in electronic ignition systems) are closed for a certain number of degrees of rotation, and open between these points. Simply as a matter of interest, this means that the total number of degrees during which the points are closed, plus the total number of degrees that they are open, will equal 360 degrees.

In four cylinder engines, there is usually ample time for the primary circuit to be open and closed (to energize the coil) four times during each revolution of the distributor, which makes the dwell value less critical than in 6 and 8 cylinder engines. In four cylinder engines, there is more of a concern over having too much dwell time (during which time the coil is energized) which can result in high coil temperature and premature failure.

In electronic ignition systems, the dwell value is fixed at approximately 50 degrees. In conventional systems, (considering the difficulty involved in checking and adjusting for dwell) most folks simply rely on the setting of the point gap to provide the proper dwell time.

BTW I think I corrupted more hot foreign wymins than they, me!

"Yet Big J claims ANY spark will ignite ANY fuel-air charge in ANY engine... I intuit it ain't so... just don't have the hard data... yet."

The problem, you see, is getting that lil yellow spark in the first place. And yes it has to do with dwell also. But once there IS a spark, of ANY quality, the flame is lit. And once lit the fuel don't know or care what it was that got it started.

Big JIm