What would you do?

[Mutant Pony]

Thats an awesome motor Jim! I have CHI in my favorites. I would have to win the lotto to buy anything from them though. In the last top engine challenge the motor to beat was the "clevor". A 351w block with the CHI (cleveland) heads. The Top #2,3,4,5 were all based on this combo. making close to 800h.p. on pump gas. There was a stroked 400 with CHI heads but they were ONLY in the 600's.

 

[Sunk]

I remember reading about those motors, and at the time I was building my Cleveland. That made me so jealous...

 

[jrmustranger97]

I would also stroke the motor. I just built a 393 stroker out of my old 351M. Haven't started her up yet but I can't wait. And I have to know why everyone always says you need a C6? I know it's a great transmission and all but the things weigh a ton. With all of the new parts and technology out there it's perfectly feasable to have a lighter C4 built to withstand about
600HP.

 

[Will]

The 4bbl heads on a 400 in a street car would be worthless,

No, they would be great. I had them on a '71 351C motor in a '69 Cougar and they are fine--very good above 3,500rpm on a 351. That would be a lot lower on a 400 because the piston speed is what the motor is running at, not the rpm. Yes, the exhaust ports aren't perfect, but they still flow well because they are huge in spite of the bottom half of the port being basically worthless.

It's easy to run 12s in a 3,000# car with an 11-1 basically stock 351C with a camshaft that will allow it to pull up to 7,000rpm and 4.56 gears and a loose converter. I had that car. With the 400's 4" stroke those heads would come to live at a lower engine speed. You couldn't use those 2.50 gears with it though.

I've got a book full of flow bench tests with the 351 4V. They are pretty darn impressive. The perception of them sucking is because of who was using them--Pro Stockers and NASCAR. When you are running a factory cast head in a Pro Stock or Nascar motor and need 600hp from 340 cid, yeah the exhaust ports are an issue. But it will make 400hp with the exhaust ports the wat they are.

And the 351C 4V with a thumper of a cam in it (Erson Hi Flo II: 245* @ .050 on 108* lobe centers and a single plane Offy with a 4779 Holley and 1 3/4" primary headers through 3 /2" collectors) is the sweetest sounding stock engine there is.

 

[Dave R]

Dave.....couldnt i just use the assecory brackets and such from the truck? Room shouldnt be an issue, and the alternator plugs in the same way....

You missunderstand, the engine mounts are in two pieces, an isolator bolted to the frame and a bracket that bolts between the isolator and the block. I'm 99% sure that the Windsor and the 385 engines used the same isolator but they used different mounting brackets. Though if you can find a similar year LTD with a 385 series block, think station wagon, you can get the brackets from that.

Australian 302c heads would be awesome. Edelbrock has heads available now for 1k each (ouch).

There was a company up in the northwest that cast, what they called, a 3V head. Basically it is/was 2V ports with 4V chamber and valves.

You can do the same by stuffing 4V valves in an AU 302 head.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I see what you mean now dave.

Why couldnt i run the 2.50 gears? My thinking is as it sits now the 400 has more low end then a stock 351W.....correct? The 351W launched it ok, but really came alive at 35 or 40MPH. I would be willing to lose some top end with the 400 (i really dont need to run 120+mph) to gain some bottom end torque.

later,
Dustin

 

[Dave R]

Why couldnt i run the 2.50 gears? My thinking is as it sits now the 400 has more low end then a stock 351W.....correct? The 351W launched it ok, but really came alive at 35 or 40MPH. I would be willing to lose some top end with the 400 (i really dont need to run 120+mph) to gain some bottom end torque.

Yes, but with 3.50 gears and a posi it would come alive at 10-15mph and you wouldn't be sitting there twiddling your thumbs waiting for the power. That's a big heavy car and you need to get it motivated. 2.50 would be fine if your just cruising the freeway at 60-70.

 

[Ozwynn]

dude, bite the bullet. Use some launching gears. to use the 2.50's you need a direct drive close ratio 5speed with a deap first and second gear. get real crazy, get a 4L80e from raptor that is built for a corvette that has a manual valve body. then you get over drive with complete control over the transmission, couple that with some 3.73's and a 396 stroker (351w).

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I dont wanna lose all my cruiseing abilty though....and i dont wana go with a O\D. So what....like some 3.55's or 3.08's?

later,
Dustin

 

[rickcdewitt]

that car has a 9 inch right?it should be easy to put in a 3.08 centersection for cheap out of another big car or truck and swap higher or lower from there.if i remember correctly,with 3.55's you would turn about 2000 at 60-65 with an overdrive tranny.the 3.08's or 3.27's should be perfect(especially if the 2.50's diden't drive you crazy from the get go.

 

[almostclueless]

The 4bbl heads on a 400 in a street car would be worthless

The 4V low end "problem" is a fallacy. Go read the Cleveland forums. Lots of guys that are perfectly happy with 4V's and around 3.50 gears because they did their homework and tuned it right.

Open chamber 4V heads would be fantastic on a 400.

Australian 302c heads would be awesome.

Aussies on a 400 would result in static compression that could only be used with race gas unless insanely dished pistons were used, and their ports are small for a performance 400.

The 351w would be much cheaper to build and would be more responsive, better low end torque.

Price Cleveland short block parts. You make them sound like their made out of diamonds. Quality W and C short block parts aren't that different in price if you know where to buy.

The 400 has huge intake ports and valves.

The 400 has what are essentially 2V Cleveland heads and valves, though the exh ports ARE somewhat compromised.


Don't you own a Cleveland for crying out loud?

 

[Totalled]

The 4V low end "problem" is a fallacy. Go read the Cleveland forums. Lots of guys that are perfectly happy with 4V's and around 3.50 gears because they did their homework and tuned it right.

That depends allot on compression ratio. My '73 mustang has a 8.9:1 351CJ and it's a soggy sponge below 3000... even with 3.89 gears.

Dustin, get a 3.25 geared pig if you're that concearned about the freeway.. it probably barely gets above 2,000 rpm on the freeway with 2.50 gears.

My friends '72 torino with a 2v 351C has 2.50 gears an I shift it into 2nd gear at 50 mph... you need more gear.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

red85 was putting a 400 crank into a 351W block to make a small block 400 of sorts, you might check with him to see how it is working out. Then you would have all the grunt of the 400 with the 351W aftermarket (which is alot bigger) We still have the original 400 out of my dad's F-350 in the garage, if I stumble apoun a 351 I might go down that road with my Ranger.

I have looked for stuff for our 400, it seems 302/351W stuff is alot easier to find or is at least more common. 400's were only used in big trucks and big cars, and died in 1982. The 351C died in the early 70's, the demand just isn't there for them like it used to be as there as been over 30 years to thin the herd. Windsors were used in Mustangs and F-150's well into the mid 90's, which is a broad area so there is alot more demand for them for different applications. I wouldn't canabalize your truck, 400's are not exactly a rare critter to find if you are going to get radical with it anyway.

Of course just fixing the 351W that is already in the car would be alot easier to do.

 

[fordwheelinman]

Sorry, wont work that way without TONS of block machining, which would make it completely useless, youd be better off building a true windsor stroker.


PLEASE dont junk the f350, if you do go that route, ill give you scrap price for the whole chassis, and the 4spd. Id leave the 400 alone, and rebuild the 351. But im a 70's truck fanatic, soooo yeah.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Sorry, wont work that way without TONS of block machining, which would make it completely useless, youd be better off building a true windsor stroker.

I haven't done it, and I am not sure what the status is on it, but at the time (it has been awhile ago) it was looking like it would all go together ok.