Still trying to fix my alignment. Few more ?'s

[themaxx69]

After doing a lot of reading here about doing your own alignment, I figured it didn't sound that difficult and i would try it. Wasn't quite that easy. I'm sure it will be once I fully understand the caster.

Following 4x4junkies's advice I got a couple 1/4" steel plates and 3 12" 3/8" metal rods(works great w/wd40). I also found a craftsman digital angle finder at Sears for $35. I used the angle finder on a flat piece of metal that I held vertically on the lips of the rim for the camber. I need to make probably one more adjustment on both side to get them both + half a degree. I think the prob with the camber has been cause the ground where I'm doing it isn't level. It's a little gravel on asphalt. I tried sweeping the gravel away under both tires and checked the level, but the camber still seemed to change a little when I drove and rechecked even though I used steel plates. I'm going to go to a church parking lot around the corner and do the next adjustments. Nice flat ground.

Next prob is with the toe. I have been using a tape measure, but it also has changed a bit after driving. I think it's something with the tires, so I need to fashion some kind of rod and try the inside rims. Any ideas on making the rod? I was also wondering, can you measure the toe with the front jacked up and tires off? Measure off the brake rotor or something else?

After the last adjustment, camber on both sides was almost the same, I think within about 1/4 degree. I checked the toe, it seemed close. When I went around the block and down the street, it was pulling real hard to the right when it wasn't before. So I stopped in a parking lot, checked the ground where tires were, was flat on both sides and checked the camber and toe. The camber now was a little different and the toe was off too, so I adjusted the toe back to what looked about even with the tape and it drove almost straight until I hit the brakes then it pulled hard right. Also, on the way home when I hit around 35-40mph it would start shaking a little, and when I started slowing down it started shaking REAL bad, like I thought something was gonna fly off.

I'm hoping the problem is the ground, so I'm gonna go the the church lot and recheck. And no I didn't forget to tighten anything and joints, bearings, rods, brakes are good.

That brings me to the caster. I have read different things in various threads here on the caster. I thought the bottom side of the axle beam next to were the radius arm bolts, was supposed to be parallel to the ground. Well, one side was exactly, on the other side there is a slight twist so I thought the measurement would be wrong. Is that not the way to measure it? I don't I could get the angle finder to fit anywhere else.

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/themaxx69/?action=view&current=twist-1.jpg

I know what 4x4junkie said about caster, but didn't seem clear. For example, it's pulling right, so do I add caster to the right or - from left? Then another post was mentioning adding as much caster while keeping it even on both sides?

Thanks for all input on everything so far everyone, especially you junkie.

 

[mentalbreakdown00]

Ok forst off a pull 90% of the time is not from an alignment. A drift or a wandering will be, but could also be from worn parts. The 90% of the time there is a pull swap the front tires from side to side and the pull will be gone. Now trying to do your own alignment to me is assinine. I do them for a living and thinking you are gonna get the caster, camber, then finally the toe set to within one onehundreth of a degree is ridiculous.

 

[themaxx69]

I figured within 1/10 of a degree or so would be fine. As far as pulling, after I replaced the tie rods and drag link it was pulling real hard to the left. So, the first thing I did before camber was to set the toe, I know you have to do it after also. When I set the toe the first time, it was driving almost perfectly straight. Then after doing the camber, it was pulling hard right. Then I did the toe again and it's almost straight again. I know I need a more accurate way to do the toe though.

 

[4x4junkie]

Ok forst off a pull 90% of the time is not from an alignment. A drift or a wandering will be, but could also be from worn parts. The 90% of the time there is a pull swap the front tires from side to side and the pull will be gone. Now trying to do your own alignment to me is assinine. I do them for a living and thinking you are gonna get the caster, camber, then finally the toe set to within one onehundreth of a degree is ridiculous.

One one-hundredth of a degree... lol that's funny. Most vehicles will likely read at least a few hundredths different if you were to simply back it out of your garage, then pull it right back in and measure it again.
The specs typically have ranges of .25° to .5° (5° for the caster, with up to a .4° split between sides). If you're anywhere within that amount of what's called for, you're "in spec".


themaxx69, yes, you should have a smooth level surface to work on, otherwise it'll end up being off because the ground didn't let the dowels roll properly (a smooth concrete garage floor would be ideal).
For checking toe, I made a rod out of two pieces of tubing that telescope into each other, with a hose clamp on the end to snug it from moving. I've found the results to be a bit variable on steel rims though (works excellent on the machined surface aluminum rims typically have though).
You cannot accurately measure toe without the full weight of the vehicle on the tires.

As for the pulling to the right, it's either/or on the caster (either one will (to a point) accomplish the same thing). If your passengerside caster adjustment should happen to be close to it's maximum available, then simply subtract some from the driverside instead. If both sides are near the middle of their range, then generally adding caster is preferable to subtracting.

Hope that helps

 

[themaxx69]

So, as far as the caster, is there a way to measure it with just the angle finder or do I just start adding half a degree or so at a time? Are the bottom of the axle beams by the radius arm supposed to be parallel to the ground? I put a link to a picture where I measured it at. Like I said left side was exactly level, but right was a little over 2 degrees off, which way I don't remember, negative I think. But, I'm not sure how right it was because of the tiny little twist.

 

[4x4junkie]

2° is a lot of difference to have there... Was the truck level when you measured that? as that matters a lot.

Without the $100,000 machine, a trip around the block is generally all that's needed to asses whether caster is off by it's pulling to one side. Changing the caster by 0.5-1° at a time will eventually get you to where it needs to be (the actual amount of caster isn't as important as that it's within it's specified range for total caster (2-7°). If the beam/radius arm is dead-level, and the adjuster is centered for caster, total caster at the wheel should be approx 5°.

 

[themaxx69]

So, was I measuring the caster in the right spot? Bottom of beam between radius arm bolt and where knuckle curves up.

 

[4x4junkie]

That's a good starting point for reference, yes. Ideally you want to have that level (parallel) with the ground, although up to a degree or two off can be compensated for in the bushing. I'd be concerned something is bent or worn under there if both sides are off from each other though (radius arm maybe).

 

[4x4mike2004]

i do alianments for a living an even tho it might not be a bad idea to try to do it yourself, i think it would end up costing more in parts an time than it would be to just take it to a shop. A good alingment will get your truck within a hondredth of a degree, and even tho it will fluctuate a little it will be dead on the firs time. A $70 dollar trip to the shop could save you hours of trying to tweak your own stuff.

 

[mentalbreakdown00]

Sorry, was half asleep when I wrote a hundreth, meant 10th..... I have never had to do, nor would I try to do an alignment without my trusty alignment machine. I will still stand by my statement that an alignment does not cause a pull 90% of the time.....

 

[themaxx69]

Well, I got the time. Not really taking to much anyways. Just like most other learning experiences, once I get it down, I'll be able to do it much quicker in the future. Plus I have read to many bad experiences with alignment shops. I also plan to regularly beat this thing up off road. It was my understanding that the alignment could be thrown off pretty easy when off roading and small jumping, which is what I think got me into this mess, kinda.

 

[4x4junkie]

I will still stand by my statement that an alignment does not cause a pull 90% of the time.....

I don't disagree with that, very often it is due to tire wear. But in this case the OP has already replaced the alignment bushings and is attempting to dial them into where they should be, so it should already be a given that the alignment is off at the moment (I would suggest he puts his rear tires up on the front though if his tires have any wear on them).

It definitely is a learning experience for sure, but the knowledge that comes with it does make it go quicker each time you do it (I can do a simple toe check in a half-hour, and a full alignment (checking & adjusting camber/caster) in maybe two hours using simple tools. You'll sometimes end up waiting around about that same length of time if you take it in to a typical shop, much longer if they're "busy").

And big machines are not a guarantee you'll get a good alignment either.
Case in point:
My friend just had brand new 33s put on his Ranger a few months ago (at America's Tire AKA Discount Tire IIRC). After about 1200 miles I noticed the inside tread on his front tires starting to get feathered on the edges. So I checked his toe alignment using my "trusty" old tape measure and rollplate and found it a whole ¾" toed out! Clearly someone didn't know what the F! they were doing, as it wasn't like that before on his old tires, they were worn fairly evenly. I also don't really want to accuse them of doing something like that on purpose either (maybe to spur the sale of another new set of tires sooner?), but sometimes I do have to wonder this as well...


I think if someone has some understanding of what's involved in doing a wheel alignment (or ANY work on their vehicle for that matter) and wants to give it a try, I think it's actually wrong to not encourage them to try it at least once. No matter what the turnout is (good OR bad) it can be a learning experience. If it turns out good, then all that much better.

 

[themaxx69]

I have just about had it trying to align this thing.

I got the camber set to + .5 with no weight in cab, then set the toe. Pulled to the right pretty bad so I added 1 degree caster to the right, then rechecked toe. Still pulled right pretty bad. Then I -1 degree caster from the left....guess what, stills pulls bad to right.

I got the spicer 6122025 bushings which is now raybestos I guess. Couldn't get a hold of them today because the instructions on caster is weird. It has caster numbers for driver and passenger side, but the way the chart is, you can't set positive camber + change caster on passenger side? I'll try to attach a pic.

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/themaxx69/?action=view&current=chart.jpg

 

[4x4junkie]

Not sure I follow your question

The way I do it, I note what the bushing is currently set at, and then find that figure (or as close to it as possible) on the chart. Then I follow the column (or row) over until I get to the new setting I want, then reindex the bushing to that (make sure you follow the column for caster in the proper direction depending on if its the driver or passengerside you are changing).

Say for example the passengerside bushing is currently set at:

O
Q-R
(should be +¼° camber, -¼° caster correction)

To add +1° caster to that side (keeping the same camber), you follow the +¼° camber column up from that to:

K-L
U
(+¼° camber, +¾° caster)

Then reinsert the bushing as indicated.

Is that how you've been doing it?

 

[sloth69mustang]

i think the problem with it changing on you when you drive and reads always dif i thought was kind of obvious for the guys who know about alignments. people saying they do it for a living should have noticed this already or said something. well junkie kind of said it. and i as well do this for a living and actually have an ase in suspension. what makes alignments really easy in a shop is the rack has the plates that allow the suspension to full settle. and when you make an adjustment to toe or camber those plates let the tires move to where ever they need to go to be in spec. doing in your garage doesnt give your tires that freedom. for example setting the toe on your truck it is going to push the tires side to side. but tires grip the ground and dont really move side to side until (this is what junkie was trying to say) when you drive the truck around the block it allows the suspension to fully settle. so i personally think aligning it on a gravel driveway that is level would be better bc it will allows the tires to more a little more than the cement driveway would. and as for caster...... you shouldnt really be having to change it. 9 of or 10 cars that come in for an alignment usually just need the toe reset after you replace a part. sometimes camber needs set but not very often. set your camber. set your toe. drive it around the block and check specs again. i just did an alignment yesterday on my dads ranger. spes for camber should be 1 degree and caster settings were a little wacky but some where around 4 degress. to me camber is not that important on a truck bc you arent doing 80+ mph in the thing well that will cause some arguments but its only real effect is at higher speeds.