Hard to get into gear at stop but when moving it's fine

[epatrick]

Hi,
Recently I took my 98 4.0 4x4 manual ranger off roading and unfortunately it got stuck where water was up to the floor for two hours and up to the bumper in gravel. Thankfully we got it pulled out but afterwards at a stop I clutch in and go to put it in gear and i have to push pretty hard to get it in one but once it's in with the clutch still in I can get into any gear. Also when moving it has no problems. Yesterday I tested the clutch and brake fluid and the clutch fluid was bad so I changed it and bled it by having someone push the clutch while I open the bleeder, close, then clutch off a few times. I drove it to work today and it's still hard to get into gear and the bite point seems to be lower.

I suspect I may not have bled it well enough but I'm wondering what some other possibilities are and other tests I can perform.

Any help helps thanks!

 

[pjtoledo]

a bad pilot bearing can do that. it grabs the input shaft and keeps it spinning.
also sounds like more bleeding is in order. these are difficult to bleed, air can get trapped in the MC.
there are lots of opinions & procedures about bleeding, do some searching 'n reading for what you can do.

 

[epatrick]

a bad pilot bearing can do that. it grabs the input shaft and keeps it spinning.
also sounds like more bleeding is in order. these are difficult to bleed, air can get trapped in the MC.
there are lots of opinions & procedures about bleeding, do some searching 'n reading for what you can do.

How can I tell if it's the bearing or I need to do more bleeding?

 

[pjtoledo]

back to basics: air compresses, hydraulic fluid doesn't.
if the pedal is spongy something is compressing or moving that shouldn't be moving.
even with air in the system the compressed air will give some clutch action, but not enough.
the worst case scenario is stopped with engine running, if already moving the 2 already moving gears mesh fairly easily.
if the reservoir got low it may have allowed air into the master cylinder. that air gets trapped above the outlet port.
they are a pain to bleed. I remove & invert it. some guys open the top to let air out. some side-step the clutch pedal.

the pilot bearing is mounted in the rear of the crankshaft and obviously turns with the crank.
the transmission input shaft slides into the bearing. that bearing only does it's thing when your foot is depressing the clutch. foot not on clutch and all the parts rotate as one, bearing is only going along for the ride then and not
doing the bearing action.

when shifting gears or stopped the engine & trans input are at different speeds so the pilot bearing is now "bearinging"
a bad pilot bearing can grab the input shaft and turn it. that's what prevents shifting into first when stopped.
it can also grab and jerk the truck when stopped with clutch down.
at speed & going between gears is not effected as much.

there is an inspection port on the bell housing where you can see the clutch open up/release.
it only moves a small amount, 0.015-0.050" and should spin if in neutral with clutch depressed.

 

[bobbywalter]

pilot.....or front inputs at trans can be a thing..

 

[epatrick]

back to basics: air compresses, hydraulic fluid doesn't.
if the pedal is spongy something is compressing or moving that shouldn't be moving.
even with air in the system the compressed air will give some clutch action, but not enough.
the worst case scenario is stopped with engine running, if already moving the 2 already moving gears mesh fairly easily.
if the reservoir got low it may have allowed air into the master cylinder. that air gets trapped above the outlet port.
they are a pain to bleed. I remove & invert it. some guys open the top to let air out. some side-step the clutch pedal.

the pilot bearing is mounted in the rear of the crankshaft and obviously turns with the crank.
the transmission input shaft slides into the bearing. that bearing only does it's thing when your foot is depressing the clutch. foot not on clutch and all the parts rotate as one, bearing is only going along for the ride then and not
doing the bearing action.

when shifting gears or stopped the engine & trans input are at different speeds so the pilot bearing is now "bearinging"
a bad pilot bearing can grab the input shaft and turn it. that's what prevents shifting into first when stopped.
it can also grab and jerk the truck when stopped with clutch down.
at speed & going between gears is not effected as much.

there is an inspection port on the bell housing where you can see the clutch open up/release.
it only moves a small amount, 0.015-0.050" and should spin if in neutral with clutch depressed.

It doesn't jerk the truck when stopped with the clutch in. also when downshifting from second to first it grinds for a second. Are there any other symptoms for the pilot bearing? I bled it again last night with no difference in the feel or performance. Also, when I hold the clutch down for about 3 seconds and then go to put it in first it goes in just fine.
it's worth mentioning that there's a little hesitation for all the other gears too it's just a lot more for first and reverse so when I'm at a light and it's time to go I'll go second then first to save a little time.

I'm totally out of ideas

 

[rubydist]

The way these systems are designed, it is very hard to get them bled. Most likely you have not bled it enough, so it is still not releasing fully.

Also, the throwout bearing on these is designed to be spinning all of the time, not just when the clutch is depressed.

 

[epatrick]

The way these systems are designed, it is very hard to get them bled. Most likely you have not bled it enough, so it is still not releasing fully.

Also, the throwout bearing on these is designed to be spinning all of the time, not just when the clutch is depressed.

Wouldn't it be the case that if I pumped the clutch a lot then tried it it would work better? Because I've tried to pump it a lot even 20+ times before going into first and it doesn't make a difference.

 

[pjtoledo]

every time you raise the clutch

It doesn't jerk the truck when stopped with the clutch in. also when downshifting from second to first it grinds for a second. Are there any other symptoms for the pilot bearing? I bled it again last night with no difference in the feel or performance. Also, when I hold the clutch down for about 3 seconds and then go to put it in first it goes in just fine.
it's worth mentioning that there's a little hesitation for all the other gears too it's just a lot more for first and reverse so when I'm at a light and it's time to go I'll go second then first to save a little time.

I'm totally out of ideas

since you had it under water that may be the clutch release/throwout bearing binding on the shaft and slowly releasing.

 

[pjtoledo]

Wouldn't it be the case that if I pumped the clutch a lot then tried it it would work better? Because I've tried to pump it a lot even 20+ times before going into first and it doesn't make a difference.

every time you raise the clutch pedal the pressure releases.

brake systems are different, those can be pumped up.

 

[epatrick]

every time you raise the clutch

since you had it under water that may be the clutch release/throwout bearing binding on the shaft and slowly releasing.

I see, but why is it then quicker to go in every other gear besides first and reverse?

 

[pjtoledo]

possibly because those ratios are higher, there is a bigger rotational speed difference between them.