CAFE standards... rolled back

[Uncle Gump]

They sure don't make a typical 12 volt automotive battery worth a damn anymore.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

They sure don't make a typical 12 volt automotive battery worth a damn anymore.

I wonder if battery manufacturers branched into battery maintainers? Then it would make sense to make sub-par batteries...


Do I need a tinfoil hat?

 

[Uncle Gump]

I wonder if battery manufacturers branched into battery maintainers? Then it would make sense to make sub-par batteries...


Do I need a tinfoil hat?

Their strategy worked on me...

 

[scotts90ranger]

I saw one theory on that being where batteries are made and possibly like those videos you see with barefoot people cutting the top off batteries and mixing up used plates and rebranding them... not to mention there hasn't been any domestically mined lead for like 30 years now so they're probably not refining the scrap lead very well... and knowing this country they probably outlawed something that made batteries last longer like using a subpar acid or something...

 

[sgtsandman]

Flooded lead acid batteries are certainly not made as well as they used to be. Why is up to speculation. It could be the recycling of old material, lower quality manufacturing and materials, and intentional lower quality to increase sales. It may even be a combination of all three.

Batteries are still lasting to about the end of the warranty they come with but seem to be lasting no longer than that. Finding a battery with more than a three year warranty is also becoming a rare thing. Of the three vehicles I take care of, only one had a battery available at a parts store with a five year warranty. With the other two, one could only get a maximum of three years no matter where I looked.

Getting a battery to last more than the warranty seems to be a thing of the past. Everyone I just replaced, died at about the end of it's warranty period and it appears to have been the same the last time I replaced them before this.

 

[JohnnyO]

They would be stupid if they did, it wouldn't take much for a future administration to flip the switch back the other way.

That's why we need Congress to pass the REINS Act. It's been floating around Capitol Hill for a decade.
Basically any regulation that costs over $100 million would have to be voted on by Congress.

 

[stmitch]

My complaints with hybrids is the same as my complaints with EV's- first, in 8-9 years when the battery fails it will cost more than the value of the vehicle to replace.

The Feds require hybrid/EV components to be covered under warranty for 8 years-100k miles at minimum. Batteries, motors, inverters, etc all fall under that coverage. Some manufacturers choose to cover them longer than that. They can do this because battery replacement in 8-9 years is pretty uncommon.

All batteries will eventually fail, but that's not much different than ICE powertrains failing. There are so many ICE vehicles that have been sent to the boneyard after engine or transmission failure that cost more than the vehicle was worth. We've seen it with Nissan CVTs, Ford's Powershift transmissions, GM and Chrysler's issues with top ends related to VVT/AFM, etc.

Vehicles of about any type depreciate over time. After 10 years of depreciation, just about any expensive repair can be enough to mechanically total a car. That could be something like an engine dropping a valve and needing replacement, or it could be something like a hybrid/EV motor needing replacement. The only real difference is that we tend to accept the mechanical things wearing out because we're used to that, while hybrid/EV stuff needing replacement is new and scary so we deem it to be unacceptable.

 

[19Walt93]

The Feds require hybrid/EV components to be covered under warranty for 8 years-100k miles at minimum. Batteries, motors, inverters, etc all fall under that coverage. Some manufacturers choose to cover them longer than that. They can do this because battery replacement in 8-9 years is pretty uncommon.

All batteries will eventually fail, but that's not much different than ICE powertrains failing. There are so many ICE vehicles that have been sent to the boneyard after engine or transmission failure that cost more than the vehicle was worth. We've seen it with Nissan CVTs, Ford's Powershift transmissions, GM and Chrysler's issues with top ends related to VVT/AFM, etc.

Vehicles of about any type depreciate over time. After 10 years of depreciation, just about any expensive repair can be enough to mechanically total a car. That could be something like an engine dropping a valve and needing replacement, or it could be something like a hybrid/EV motor needing replacement. The only real difference is that we tend to accept the mechanical things wearing out because we're used to that, while hybrid/EV stuff needing replacement is new and scary so we deem it to be unacceptable.

I know about the warranty, I administered our warranty from the mid 80's until retirement in 2017. The problems start after it expires. And a battery replacement doesn't compare to an engine- in 2016 we replaced a hybrid Escape battery under warranty and the claim was a little over $14,000- in 2016. We also replaced a poorly maintained 5.4 in a Navigator that cost about $6000 retail and would not have been needed if the oil had been changed a few more times. Battery replacement will be needed regardless what the owner does- it's not a question of "IF" it's "WHEN".
By the way, the 480 volt electric F150 battery is $42,000. Not including installation.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

I know about the warranty, I administered our warranty from the mid 80's until retirement in 2017. The problems start after it expires. And a battery replacement doesn't compare to an engine- in 2016 we replaced a hybrid Escape battery under warranty and the claim was a little over $14,000- in 2016. We also replaced a poorly maintained 5.4 in a Navigator that cost about $6000 retail and would not have been needed if the oil had been changed a few more times. Battery replacement will be needed regardless what the owner does- it's not a question of "IF" it's "WHEN".
By the way, the 480 volt electric F150 battery is $42,000. Not including installation.

I did some quick research. While I dont doubt your numbers, I found that there are alternatives. Not all batteries need full replacement, from what I read very few do. There are modules that make up a full battery pack and most times replacing the bad module or 2 will be all that is needed. Or maybe its just replacing ancillary parts. Used batteries are available. Also the battery doesnt just end of life at end of warranty, it sounds like its good for 15 years or 300,000 miles before problems start cropping up, and far fewer problems than ice engines. I still think that EV is the future because there is a finite amount of carbon base fuel. Gasoline and deisel are not going to disappear any time soon but the sooner we get to EV the better, IMO.

Article from a local mechanic;

From an EV mechanic: What does it truly cost to replace an electric vehicle battery?

How long can you expect your EV battery to last? How much does a replacement truly cost? If your battery fails, what are your options?

mygarageairdrie.ca

 

[scotts90ranger]

I did some quick research. While I dont doubt your numbers, I found that there are alternatives. Not all batteries need full replacement, from what I read very few do. There are modules that make up a full battery pack and most times replacing the bad module or 2 will be all that is needed. Or maybe its just replacing ancillary parts. Used batteries are available. Also the battery doesnt just end of life at end of warranty, it sounds like its good for 15 years or 300,000 miles before problems start cropping up, and far fewer problems than ice engines. I still think that EV is the future because there is a finite amount of carbon base fuel. Gasoline and deisel are not going to disappear any time soon but the sooner we get to EV the better, IMO.

Article from a local mechanic;

From an EV mechanic: What does it truly cost to replace an electric vehicle battery?

How long can you expect your EV battery to last? How much does a replacement truly cost? If your battery fails, what are your options?

mygarageairdrie.ca

I don't argue that is a reasonable expectation but we aren't there in power generation to support it, they want to outlaw the most efficient methods we have and ignore the resources involved in the "green" methods, turbine blades have a lifespan, solar panel chemicals are gross, battery metals involve extreme mining operations and gross settling ponds and stuff, they need to stop "requiring" things and ignoring things that happen in China where they don't care about the mining they just want the $$...

 

[Bill]

They sure don't make a typical 12 volt automotive battery worth a damn anymore.

I've been buying Motorcraft batteries and getting about 6 to 7 years out of them. I bought an Interstate battery at Costco that was a 36 month battery and I got exactly 36 months out of it, which is terrible for a battery in a mild climate. The Motorcraft batterys are priced about the same as other batteries and some of the dealerships have discounts if you pay for it on the Ford Parts website and pick it up.