New clutch, soft pedal/no disengagement. Images of tranny/cluch

[migee]

Hi All,

After a rebuild of an engine and a new clutch disk (and resurfaced flywheel) I put everything back together. There was nothing wrong with the clutch and I while it has 150,000km on it I did not want to completely overhaul the clutch so I just settled for a new disk.

When I put everything back together (fight of my life to get engine to mate with tranny) I noticed after bolting most of everything back... that the clutch pedal was very soft. I tried pumping ~25 times with no luck. I also made sure that it actually wasn't disengaging the clutch. The hydraulic system was never opened. I had thought that I damaged something by bolting the transmission to the block to mate it. However I pulled everything back out and nothing appears out of place.

I only have a few ideas...

1. Overmachined flywheel?
2. Applied too much force to fingers to get adjusting ring rotated on pressure plate? I did this one bit at a time until i could move the ring.
3. Air in system... somehow..?
4. Clutch disk installed backwards (however I'm fairly certain I did this right)
5. Bad pilot bearing?

I could change gears just fine before I removed the transmission. When I had looked into the transmission the throwout bearing was moving and making some contact with the flywheel. Though it was hard to see much.

That said, I really don't know where to take it from here. I've posted some pictures if anyone can suggest things to check...

IMG-20131103-00003.jpg
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IMG-20131103-00005.jpg
IMG-20131103-00008.jpg

 

[migee]

Last night I checked the clutch pedal with the line disconnected from the transmission (now that it is out) and it is rock hard. So I know there was no air in that part of the system.

i will see about buying a new slave anyway to see if that helps. I watched some youtube videos however and the travel of the slave/throwout appeared to be fine the first time from what I remember.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

Your last three pics are all the same.
I can't help, it's beyond my knowledge sphere but, I do remember reading something about some adjustment to the pressure plate[?] so the new disc is at the proper distance to engage properly. I'll see if I can find the thread.
Edit; http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145444

Richard

 

[migee]

Your last three pics are all the same.
I can't help, it's beyond my knowledge sphere but, I do remember reading something about some adjustment to the pressure plate[?] so the new disc is at the proper distance to engage properly. I'll see if I can find the thread.
Edit; http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145444

Richard

Fixed pictures. Thanks for the advice. I recall exactly what your talking about. I'm certain that was done right, I used a piece of sheet metal and a harmonic puller to compress the fingers, then rotate those. You can see on the pressure plate that the three springs are all compressed. I wonder if I bent the fingers inward though. Hard to say I can't find any measurements and hard to tell looking at other pictures.

 

[RonD]

I would hit a parts store that has a self adjusting pressure plate in stock, bring the tape measure, , and/or the original pressure plate to compare.

It probably is a slave issue but never hurts to check, as the failing to disengage could be an incorrect reset of the pressure plate.

 

[migee]

I would hit a parts store that has a self adjusting pressure plate in stock, bring the tape measure, , and/or the original pressure plate to compare.

It probably is a slave issue but never hurts to check, as the failing to disengage could be an incorrect reset of the pressure plate.

Thanks, I might just buy a full clutch kit and bite the bullet unless I have time to run home and back out again to the store. I still wonder why the slave would act up all of a sudden when it worked just fine. But alas I will change that out too.

 

[RonD]

It shouldn't act up, and if never disconnected and not leaking it should be fine to reuse, but................

Something ain't right, I know stating the obvious, lol.

 

[migee]

I saw a PP today at a parts store and the fingers were out further. I'll check mine again when I get a chance but it may very well be the issue. I'll report back tomorrow when I take it apart.

 

[cp2295]

I'd bleed the system, after I rebuilt my engine (using the same clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel), I noticed the clutch was spongy. I bled it and that went away. Bleeder screw for my 99 is on the top of the tranny on the drivers side.. Could save you a load of trouble.. (I don't know how air would get in the system either, maybe the disengagement of the engine and tranny screws with that?)

 

[migee]

Update...

I am now drained of energy after fighting to get the tranny in. Quite the experience to be muscling it around, coordinating with straps from the shifter hole and a jack while in a puddle of mtf! This better be the only time I have to do this for a good decade.

cp2295: Thats the next step for me. And with a new slave. I should of did this in the first place but I had a couple mechanics say I likely had snapped something in the tranny. That and I couldn't see how air got in/no fluid lost. regardless. I'll report back when new slave bled.

The pressure plate I have is fine. I never really paid attention in the past when taking them off but they are supposed to cave inward when bolting them down. Makes sense now. That said. I am hoping it was air (unlikely, as it was rock solid disconnected), or the slave.

The interesting part is the old slave appears to be missing a part off the top, though I'm not sure. Hoping this may be it, as the only travel distance I'd gain is just under .5cm. Might be what did it if I AM missing a part, considering the stock travel is 3/4in (I believe) and .5cm works to 1/5in (26% gain to put more pressure on fingers).

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I thought I could lift this myself and get it on in one go. Was I ever wrong

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[migee]

Small update.

Transmission back in, along with its crossmember and driveshaft. Sadly the pedal is still moves without much resistance. I will have to try more bleeding of the slave. I wonder if by connecting the quick connect to the slave if the air could have made its way to the master. Regardless, will try a method I heard about where the slave is pried back through the inspection hole when bleeding as it helps purge air in it.

Also the exhaust is a PITA. Even when it is out I had some time getting the ypipe disconnected from the cat pipes so I can get it installed without having the two pieces together along with the transmission. Finally all out however I still need to drill out the bolts in the flange.

Will have to pick up some new bolts tomorrow for the Y pipe. Already have spring bolt set for the other side. Need ATF to top off the transmission and a kit to get my PS pulley back on. The rest of engine is back on.

I couldn't find any bolts that worked with the Y pipe, not mentally fit enough today to work on the clutch again, so other than the exhaust I thought I'd just get the hood on. Four bolts, easy. ITS NOT with how they designed the clips. Going to have to get self tapping bolts for those.

 

[migee]

Another update

Exhaust is back in, without gaskets for the time being but makes it much quieter. Ran the engine for the first time for 10 minutes and absolutely no problems so I'm happy about that.

Transmission topped off and hood back on along with some of the smaller little things. Did a rad flush and will fill that up tomorrow. Will have an operational ranger except for the clutch. At least at this point everything else is known to work.

I worked on trying to fix the clutch on the weekend. Additional bleeding didn't help (put a full bottle of dot3 through). I went out and constructed a power bleeder for 40$ and tried that. Even though I saw no air nothing was better. I may have run the reservoir dry once as I opened the bleeder too much and couldn't get it closed in time.

Today I decided to just pull the master cylinder today and have bench 'burped' it according to the perfection clutch videos. I had too much MC movement with the hydraulic line out. I just need to find a new sleeve for the high pressure fitting as mine is chewed up before I put it back in to hope that this once and for all solves it.

I will try a gravity bleed only as the last time I had a solid MC pedal before connecting the line I pumped which may have brought air back? Hoping tomorrow is the big day.

 

[migee]

MC installed and < 1/8 travel with line unhooked. check.
New o-ring and sleeve on high pressure line. check.
Girlfriend there to help top off the reservoir every time it gets halfway. check.

So I bleed two reservoirs without using pedal, close it up. Cross my fingers and press the clutch pedal in. Success.

Then I press it again and it doesn't feel quite right. Then again and its gone. What. The. Hell.

Disconnected line, MC is still good. So maybe my (new) slave is also bad? Maybe Air is still trapped? I'm at a loss. I tried bleeding with the pedal (crack open, pedal down, close, repeat) which yielded results no different than before. I notice that sometimes I get enough clutch to move into gear when started (with a whine as it tries to engage), but then any further attempts just get a whine while trying to push gear into place.

So it seems like I have a leak but I am officially out of ideas on why. I can't imagine the new slave, replacing the old slave (which worked prior to the rebuild) would ALSO suddenly just be 'bad'. Perhaps air didn't get removed from the slave and is in a spot with more leverage?

I am at wits end. I'll talk to a shop tomorrow.
Drat.

 

[zekew64]

I'd get a complete clutch kit ($50 from Autozone). Also, I'd get a new slave cylinder and line, as the line uses a better design than the OEM design. It allows for disconnection without having to re-bleed the system if you have to take it apart.

Also, I looked at an old clutch disc, and I'm thinking that you might have it in backwards, as there is a difference between each side of the disc. Also, there is stamped markings to say which side is which (one side should say "flywheel side" or something similar).

Also, with the system bled as far as you can tell, try and have your girlfriend push the clutch in. If the slave is working as it should, you should have movement (do this without the engine on, lol!) If you have movement from the slave, then the next thing to check is the pressure plate, clutch disc, and flywheel. With the flywheel, make sure it is installed correctly; you could also check to make sure it isn't warped (which might cause the whining sound you've heard). Next, check ALL springs on your pressure plate, including the 3 outer ones. When a pressure plate goes bad, it is because there are usually broken springs around the outer edge. When I replaced my clutch, I found that and had to replace it because my truck wouldn't shift into gear as well. Lastly, make sure that the clutch disc is installed correctly.

One final note, don't hook up the exhaust or driveshaft while you're figuring this out; it makes it easier to have to get under there to change things. Also, if you're unsure if the clutch is operating properly, try to shift from 1st to Reverse with the engine on. If it is working correctly, there should be no "hard" shifting. If you have "hard" shifting or grinding before it goes into gear, shut it down and correct the cause. Also, check the fluid inside the transmission. If it is old and worn, or low, this can also cause shifting issues. Good luck.

P.S.: Oh, and before I forget--when you first try and put the truck into gear, make sure you have the brake pedal depressed. I don't know why, but for some reason Ford made it to where if you don't have it depressed, the truck won't go into gear. Just a thought.

 

[migee]

I'd get a complete clutch kit ($50 from Autozone). Also, I'd get a new slave cylinder and line, as the line uses a better design than the OEM design. It allows for disconnection without having to re-bleed the system if you have to take it apart.

Also, I looked at an old clutch disc, and I'm thinking that you might have it in backwards, as there is a difference between each side of the disc. Also, there is stamped markings to say which side is which (one side should say "flywheel side" or something similar).

Also, with the system bled as far as you can tell, try and have your girlfriend push the clutch in. If the slave is working as it should, you should have movement (do this without the engine on, lol!) If you have movement from the slave, then the next thing to check is the pressure plate, clutch disc, and flywheel. With the flywheel, make sure it is installed correctly; you could also check to make sure it isn't warped (which might cause the whining sound you've heard). Next, check ALL springs on your pressure plate, including the 3 outer ones. When a pressure plate goes bad, it is because there are usually broken springs around the outer edge. When I replaced my clutch, I found that and had to replace it because my truck wouldn't shift into gear as well. Lastly, make sure that the clutch disc is installed correctly.

One final note, don't hook up the exhaust or driveshaft while you're figuring this out; it makes it easier to have to get under there to change things. Also, if you're unsure if the clutch is operating properly, try to shift from 1st to Reverse with the engine on. If it is working correctly, there should be no "hard" shifting. If you have "hard" shifting or grinding before it goes into gear, shut it down and correct the cause. Also, check the fluid inside the transmission. If it is old and worn, or low, this can also cause shifting issues. Good luck.

P.S.: Oh, and before I forget--when you first try and put the truck into gear, make sure you have the brake pedal depressed. I don't know why, but for some reason Ford made it to where if you don't have it depressed, the truck won't go into gear. Just a thought.

Thanks for chiming in

>Also, I looked at an old clutch disc, and I'm thinking that you might have it in backwards
Not backwards, I was fairly sure it was right the first time, took it out, tried fitting it in backwards and it is not even possible. I double checked the stamping 'flywheel side' was correct too just to be sure.

>If the slave is working as it should, you should have movement
There is movement, but it is hard to measure how much. Perfection clutch lists it as 5/16ths of an inch. It looks like I may have that, or something close to that.

>check is the pressure plate, clutch disc, and flywheel. With the flywheel, make sure it is installed correctly; you could also check to make sure it isn't warped
I remember checking when I took it all apart again, it looked fairly straightforward. The PP was machined. The clutch disk was new and compared closely to the old one (with the exception of the old one having larger springs, the disc in right now is a non-adjusting clutch disc. I have read that this should not matter. The only thing I could find was that one of the dowels wasn't fully in the flywheel. This was fixed and had no effect.

>When a pressure plate goes bad, it is because there are usually broken springs around the outer edge.
Good advice -- The only springs on a PP would be the three on top though? Those worked fine when I adjusted it. Perhaps there are other PP issues like you said though. If I had to swap something out next it would be that.

>Also, check the fluid inside the transmission.
Checked, looked pristine, I topped up with new fluid after I lost a lot taking it down. No effect :/

> I don't know why, but for some reason Ford made it to where if you don't have it depressed, the truck won't go into gear.
Pretty sure that doesnt apply for manuals

>Also, if you're unsure if the clutch is operating properly, try to shift from 1st to Reverse with the engine on

I'm curious about that last one, how does that work (to diagnose?)