The new money pit... 2010 Forest River Take-it-EZ mini toy hauler

[SenorNoob]

Large shade style tent over the camper? LOL. Would look mighty funny, but if it works...

 

[JoshT]

I am a huge fan of the mini split units, and you can get a smaller one to fit in the trailer, no problem. The remote thermal transfer unit is the only thing you'd have to consider, but I've seen a few genius methods to mount one.

No doubt about the insulation. That said, at this stage it is not feasible to do anything about that. When/if I need to rip out the interior, I'll look into replacing it.

If I go that route, what I have in mind is one of the units like they install on camper vans or truck sleeper cabs. 12v system instead of 110v, and the outside unit is designed to mount under body. Would tuck right up into the frame rails underneath the camper. Be out of the way and protected, also might be more efficient being in the shade under the camper.

If I built up the available battery capacity it could potentially be run overnight off batteries alone. Not much need for that at a site with electrical hookups, but if "boondocking" it would allow for running generator during the day to charge batteries and shut off at night for quiet.

When I mentioned a lithium battery bank earlier,that is kind of what I had in mind. At that point the only thing 110v would be the microwave.

Just as a reference point, I have a 5000btu in a room that's 8'x10' 7ft tall on the 2nd floor. Saturday you could feel the temperature difference between your waist in a chair and your head. It was 86* outside and high 70s at the ceiling but low 60s about halfway down...

That may be a part of the problem, and something that I had considered as well. Heat rises, cold sinks. The window unit is down at floor level, the coldest part of the room.

Might work better if the unit were set up higher on the wall. Might work better if there was a vent in the ceiling to draw the hot air out. Unfortunately it's not exactly very practical to rebuild everything just to do those things. That is what it would turn into, a full gut and rebuild.

If I do the mini split deal, the inside part will be up high near the ceiling which might help. In the interim, some of those newer window units have a remote thermostat in the remote. The idea is that it judges room temperature on location of remote instead of location of the unit. If I use one of those and store the remote high on the opposite corner for the camper...

Were the attached awnings / tent room set up?

No. They could definitely help, but I want to get things as good as I can in the worst conditions possible. Well, worst conditions I'm likely to go in, if it's too bad I'm staying home. It was intentionally parked in direct sunlight all day with no covering, I wanted to see how it would perform before taking it out somewhere.

Once I get things situated it's going to be parked under a carport at home, but I'm not really going to be using it there. When camping I'm going to try to select shady spots to setup in, but you don't always get the choice.

On the list of wants is a roof rack. That's largely to throw a kayak or canoe up there. I also want it for a structure to string up a tarp covering and create an air gap between that and the roof. The solar panels mentioned previously also was related to this. Those on the roof rack would create a barrier between the sun and roof like a tarp, and have the bonus of charging the batteries. Solar isn't a pressing concern or desire, just an idea, and may not be worth the added weight.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Large shade style tent over the camper? LOL. Would look mighty funny, but if it works...

If you ever noticed like the old Land Rovers took note of this too and had a second skin on the roof with a significant air gap between it and the actual roof. Both were painted white to help stay cooler as well.

The sun would hit the top skin (called a "Safari Roof") and heat it leaving the actual cab roof cooler.

 

[JoshT]

Large shade style tent over the camper? LOL. Would look mighty funny, but if it works...

It's going to get stored under a carport, but that's at home.

Not going to carry around a tent to put up over it at every stop. Maybe a silver reflective tarp, already picked up one of those to put over it until I get the spot cleared in carport. That's kind of related to the other tarp awnings I want to get together for it.

 

[JoshT]

If you ever noticed like the old Land Rovers took note of this too and had a second skin on the roof with a significant air gap between it and the actual roof. Both were painted white to help stay cooler as well.

The sun would hit the top skin (called a "Safari Roof") and heat it leaving the actual cab roof cooler.

A lot of house roofs are also like that. The idea isn't lost on me, and was already in the plans. I want to know what it's going to do without all those aids.

 

[RobbieD]

If you ever noticed like the old Land Rovers took note of this too and had a second skin on the roof with a significant air gap between it and the actual roof. Both were painted white to help stay cooler as well.

It's also common in Asia; especially on taxi cabs.

Maybe a silver reflective tarp, already picked up one of those to put over it until I get the spot cleared in carport.

I get those; the thick reflective ones, at Hobo freight and the cost ain't bad at all.

If you do add a rack on top, it would't be too much trouble to pull a reflective tarp over the rig, and the rack would make a nice air gap for the roof.

 

[JoshT]

.If you do add a rack on top, it would't be too much trouble to pull a reflective tarp over the rig, and the rack would make a nice air gap for the roof.

That's the idea, mentioned in one of the replies up there.

 

[JoshT]

Lets look at the AC situation again. I'm almost convinced that I've got three things happening here.

1) Poor insulation & direct sunlight.
2) AC unit too small.
3) Heat soaking in the condenser compartment (outside on a normal installation).

First... This is a large part of the equation. Unfortunately can't do much about the insulation without gutting the camper and that isn't happening at the moment. When /if that happens I'll also checking out the roof for possible vent and/or AC bracing, or adding it. They ain't ideal, but better than a window unit in a box. Will be using tarps to combat solar heating, but still going to want to improve cooling capabilities.
Second... The installed window unit is 5 years old and 5050 BTU. The calculators & charts I've been using to determine that 5000 BTU was more than adequate are based on typical home construction and decent insulation. Neither of those exist here. By most accounts factory RV insulation is marginal at best. Running calculators that factor BTU for poor insulation and direct sunlight gives a different result. On the second calculator I intentionally went a little overboard on cooling, because it isn;t uncommon for it to hit tripple digits here in the summer. Probably won;t be camping in that kind of weather, and don;t actually expect it to bring the thing down to the 70s in it, but I figure that the bump probably offsets the poor insulation and direct sunlight much of the time.

Anyway these calculators suggest that I could probably benefit from a bigger unit. 7k would probably be ideal if I can find it. Be easier to locate an 8k but I'm not sure about fitment. Even a 6k would probably be better, especially when you consider improvements the units them selves over the last 5 years.






Third... Even sticking with a 5K unit the condenser compartment is not a good design. Too little volume and air flow. Not something that can really be changed without gutting and redesigning the interior. The ideal solution would be to move the condenser outside the body of the camper, but traditional RV AC and minisplit are not currently on the table. Again, it would require fairly major rework of the camper. Need to try to work with and improve upon what is there.

Since I can;t really increase compartment capacity I need to increase it's airflow. Current setup has two small computer case fans behind the unit, and a vented access panel to the outside. The case fans are 120 mm pulling air down through the floor and exhausting out the bottom, through what appear to be 80mm holes. Two 120mm fans for that large space? I'm thinking it needs more air flow. I'm also thinking that if I install a larger window unit those fans will probably be in the way.




I'm thinking that there are a few ways to go on this.

1) If there is room with a larger AC, then replace the 120mm (4.7") fans with 3-4 larger 140mm (5.5") or 200mm (7") fans, and some that move decent air, opening holes to match. Block up compartment if possible to force fans to pull air through the case.

2) Cut hole in botton of compartment for floor register, sink larger vent fans into floor register. Even if it doesn't work out for fans, it's more air flow for ventilation.

2) Vent panel has about an 8x18 opening. A couple of inches not acccessable due to wall protrusion, though that could probably trimmed if necessary. Build shroud for 2x 200mm (7" case fans) pulling/pushing through the vent. Forward wall of compartment opens into the sloped nose portion behind the galley, could add vent there to let air into the compartment.

3) Cut into forward wall of compartment, and install vent fans there pulling air from the nose of the camper, and pushing it out through the vent door and lower case fans. If placed high on the wall in the compartment it would force the hot air int he top down and out.

4) Combination of all of the above.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

I have insulated 12x20 white tarps. They also come in 12x24. Not a great amount of insulation at 0.5 or so, but probably adds 25% more R-value to your roof... And with an air gap would really help IMO. I have plans for mine in a similar fashion, temporary insulate the outside top and sides of my box van once I have made into an RV.

 

[Li'l Work Truck]

I'd remove the A/C unit and see exactly what you're working with. I believe that two 200mm fans both pushing out will work better than one in, one out. My recommendation at this point is to use the cooling power of the A/C unit and make a vent next to the face of the A/C on the right hand side so that cooler cabin air will be pulled back into the hot zone and exhausted by the fans.

 

[JoshT]

I'd remove the A/C unit and see exactly what you're working with. I believe that two 200mm fans both pushing out will work better than one in, one out. My recommendation at this point is to use the cooling power of the A/C unit and make a vent next to the face of the A/C on the right hand side so that cooler cabin air will be pulled back into the hot zone and exhausted by the fans.

Both 200mm fans would be going in the same direction. I said pushing/pulling because it is an easy matter to reverse them and test to see which works better.

Creating a vent beside the AC face isn't very practical or feasible. With current unit there is barely any space there. I could remove the pool noodle and create a little, but if I replace/upgrade the unit that will disappear. Opening int he wall to the right side of the unit isn;t practical either. That's where the port-a-john is going to get stored when I get one, and it's more enclosed than the AC cabinet.

Received a remote WiFi Hygrometer Thermometer set this afternoon. It included a wifi gateway and 6 remote units with possibility to add up to 4 more I think. Been thinking about getting one of these setups for a while to track temps around the house and out in the storage shed/barn, this gave me a good excuse to bite the bullet. Four of the remotes are now in the camper. One in the forward equipment compartment (under the galley), one in the AC compartment, and one at each end of the conditioned space. That should let me track what temperactures are actually doing and roughly compare the results of different things I try.

During the day tomorrow I'm going to track temperature differential with no AC. Probably tomorrow night and Friday I'll track the temperature with AC running max all day.


The two of these will arrive tomorrow.

The game plan is to remove this panel on the side compartment. Cut a piece of scrap wood to fit the hole and mount the fans with louvers on the outside, that'll keep me from having to worry too much about water getting in if it rains during testing. Note that fans are not to scale, 200mm case fans should be about 7" diameter and door opening is approximately 8.5" tall. Also note that I'm not above temp installing a my test panel with ductape, or removing and installing for transport if it works really well.

I'll test temps with the two small stock fans, these two larger fans, and with al 4 going. I figure that if if one of the combinations lowers compartment temps and conditioned space is acceptable, then it works and I need to find/make a more permanent version of the solution. If it lowers compartment temps, but does not improve cooling capabilities, then the unit does not have enough capacity to cool the space probably needs an upgrade. If it does nothing, then I'm back to the drawing board, time to try something else.

If the larger fans do work, and I need more space behind the AC for a larger unit, I'm thinking that those vent grills would mount to the bottom of the floor very well, and should be able to fit at least 3 across the compartment snug to that forward wall. Cut the hole in the floor large enough to sink the fans down inside and clear the AC case. To be clear, this is mostly brain storming.

Also if I can't get anywhere with the current AC, I do have a freestanding, single hose, portable AC in the house that I'm not using. Intended to get it out into the shed, but never made it there, and probably not big enough for that. I could remove the window unit, stick the ac in that corner, and run the exhaust duct out to a panel similar to what I'll mount the fans in. Not sure that I'd stick with that, but it would give me another option for testing the results, and might be a good temp solution for this summer while I figure out something better.

 

[JoshT]

Today I learned... I probably just need a new AC unit.

Tracking the temparature all day. High temperature for the day reached 91 according to local weather station, don;t have a probe outside vecause I'm not sure about their weather resistance. High temp in camper was about 10 degrees higher in full direct sunlight. The AC compartment, without it running, actually stayed cooler than the rest of the camper by about 6 degrees. That's a fair bit greater than the variance displayed by probes when they were within a few inches of each other.

After I got home I turned on the AC and let it run. AC compartment hit a high of about 118 and dropped back down to about 110 when interior hit it's low of about 75. Out of curiosity I held one of those amazon bubble mailers up to the outside vent and it sucked it too the door and held. Suggests to me that the existing fans flow as much air as the vent can let in.

Tried the suggestion above about letting it pull cooler air from inside. Don;t like that, it's like the single hose portables and defeats the ac by pulling out cool air and causing warm air to come in from other locations. It sucessfully knocked about another 10 degrees off the AC compartment temps. The interior temps didn't get any better. So the air in the AC cabinet isn;t heat soaked, can accept more, but the AC isn't pulling out more heat out of the interior. Starting to suspect the AC unit.

Finally it clicked, why haven't I measured the output of the unit? Go grab my digital meat thermometer and infrared temp gun. While they disagree on what the input and output temps are, they agree that there is less than 15 degree temp difference between the two, closer to 10 degrees. That ain't right.

Looking through documentation included with camper, the manufacturer thought that 5000 BTU was appropriate for the size. Knowing that I'm not going to rush into buying an 8k regardless of how intriguing the inverter tech is. Walmart carries a 6K BTU Midea unit that is actually a slightly smaller package than what is there currently and less than $200. It's also got that comfort sense feature, so turn that on and stick the remote in the hottest part of the camper. Not that it matters much, but it also has the filter in a better location, so won;t have to remove the whole unit to clean it. Hopefully with the newer tech installed it will cool better, be more efficient, and maybe even a little quieter.

Right or wrong, it's happening. Once that's done we'll start over on checking performance, and how/if improved venilation helps. Also going to see about getting some pool noodles or something similar to space the tarp off the roof when I put it up there.

 

[JoshT]

Well, new AC unit is an improvement. Still not enough to keep it cool during the day, but an improvement. Temps hit the mid 90s, 94 according to the weather station. AC kept the interior temp to a high of 79, so 15 degree temp difference with direct sunlight on the thing all day. Better when you consider that weather conditions yesterday were pretty much the same and without the AC the interior temps reached almost 100.

When the heat of the day passed, it pulled the temp rioght back down to set temp of 70.

Just after sunset I strung the silver tarp over the camper. Haven't things setup to create an airgap yet, but still be interesting to see what difference it makes. Not sure that tomorrow is going to be a good test, weather is calling for rain. If it is cloudy I'm not going to get the same sun exposure to compare.

 

[JoshT]

Well, some things helped, others made no difference.

Among the purchases this past week was a cot sized mattress. So decided to make attempt 2 at spending the night in it. I cranked the new AC down to my preferred sleeping temps just before my previous post, and it cooled right on off. That's already a major improvement over old AC. Tied up a towel over the window, still need to order a blind for that. Drug the mattress out and settled in for the night.

Aside from just needing to adjust to the new space and sounds it slept pretty well. Much better results than the previous attempt with the old AC and straight cot.

During the day today internal temps climbed right back up to the 79-80 degrees that it did without the tarp installed. Not convinced that the poles will create enough air gap to be worth the effort, at least not without a half dozen poles. The idea of using a tarp and poles is to have a easy to use setup to take with me, AKA portable shade. Still needed/wanted the tarp up there for protection, so all is not lost. Maybe if I get a ladder/roof rack setup, but that's a ways off at best.

I'm sure moving it to the actual shade would make a large improvement, unfortunately I don't have a location in the yard where I can get both shade and power. I was thinking about taking it down into Florida for an initial run in the next month or so, but that'll be even less shaded and potentially hotter than where it's sitting now. Still got one more thing to try before I give up on that, but it won't happen this weekend.

Fortunately the only actual planned trip on the calender is the Fall G2G in October. Weather will have started cooling off by then, the spots I'm considering are fairly well shaded, and the WV mountains will be cooler than middle GA anyway.