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Old 08-08-2007, 08:03 AM   #1
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difference 5.0 -302

originally posted on TRS v.2 by ranger306ci


To answer the question that keeps popping up, here is the following info that I have found through my own research over time. I will keep editing this as I find more info.

1) the 302 and 5.0 are basicly the same engine. 5.0 is just the metric equivalent of 302ci.
2) The 2 blocks are basicly the same. However, blocks have had some differences over the years:
a) around 1982/83 the block went from a 2 piece rear seal,
to a one piece.
cool.gif around 1980, the dipstick move to the block. Prior, it was either
in the pan, or timing cover.
c) early to mid '80s blocks are thin wall cast; not as strong.
d) mid '80s to end of production are tapped to accept a roller lifter
spider, and the lifter bores are taller.

3) Crankshaft:
a) around 1980/81 the balance changed. earlier balance was
28oz, later balance was 50 oz.
cool.gif around 82/83 the end of the crank was slightly changed for the
rear seal change. However, minor machining allows either
crank to work in either block. there is a oil slinger ring that
need to be removed.

4) Balancers/Dampers:
a) 28 oz dampers are 3 bolt
cool.gif 50 oz dampers are 4 bolt
c) around '85, timing marks moved from the passenger side of the
engine to the driver side.

5) Cam and Lifters:
a) 302 and regular 5.0 have 1 firing order.
cool.gif 5.0 ho and 351W has a different one. BOTH FIRING ORDERS
WORK WITH THE SAME CRANKSHAFT!
c) Around 85/86, started using roller lifters on some aplications.

6) Distributers:
a) 2 different shaft diameters; 0.50 and 0.467. I have also seen
gears for sale that are for 0.531. Not sure what dizzy that
would fit, maybe aftermarket?
cool.gif cast gears for hydralic tappet, steel gears for rollers. Bronze
will work for both.

7) Timing Covers:
a) three styles:
1) early style has a dipstick port, and fuel pump boss
2) mid style has no dipstick port, but has fuel pump boss.
3) late model does not have a fuel pump boss.

Heads:
All 302/5.0 heads will fit and work on all blocks!
Early '80s had the largest compustion chambers and thermactor
bosses, make really good boat anchors!
GT-40P heads have a different plug angle.
289,302,5.0,351 winsor heads will interchange, but the 351 heads
use 1/2" head bolts!


added by baddad457


Here's an addition to your list: The balancer info is incorrect, the switch to a 4 bolt 28 oz/in was made in 1970, thus a 28 oz/in balancer can be either 3 or 4 bolt. -------- Next, there are more than 3 variations of small block timing covers. You left out the reverse rotation variation, of which there are at least 3: The Stang/pickup truck cover, then the Explorer/Mountaineer cover, and finally the 94-95 Stang cover. The earlier covers are even more numerous, ther being at least 5 that I'm aware of. Two of these are for passenger side inlet water pumps.--------------------Then in addition, some of the early 80's blocks are not thin wallled. The D8VE block is a thick walled design. This block was first cast in 78 and was used in Lincolns and others till sometime in the early 80's.


from pacer88220
The reason for timing change was the cam. It is a 351 based cam. The cranks changed balancing and seal surface ends but not molds. If they did not by much my 68 looked like the 89 in every way other then forging and seal ends.
They make a kit to install 1 piece seal in two block's and vice versa only reason I could think one would want to though is to use the forged 289 crank.
mudd The difference between an h.o and and a non h.o is the cam. There are a few other things changed as well but depends on year it was made.
If carbed h.o cam and carb were different along with free-er flowing heads and exhaust.
If fuel injected it depended upon year. Say 89 they made sequential injection to match the firing order of the motor and it had mass air.
Intakes heads computer are the biggest difference.
Keep in mind the engineers were trying new stuff all the time to help it meet epa and consumers demands thats why so many changes. Only if I had a job I could beat up new toys before they were handed out.
Mudd which year are you askin for?
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:05 AM   #2
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next pinned.... How big is that V8, and how much does it weigh?

from Gaelic vyk

Engine Family
Width Length Height Weight
221/260/289/255/302 24" 29" 27.5" 460lbs
Boss 302 24.5" 29" 28.5" 500lbs
351 Windsor 25" 29" 29" 525lbs
351 Cleveland 25.5" 29.25" 29" 550lbs
351M/400 26" 29.5" 29" 575lbs
332-428 FE 27" 32" 29" 625lbs
427 SOHC 32" 34" 30" 680lbs
429/460 "385 series" 27" 34" 29" 720lbs
Boss 429 30" 34" 30" 635lbs
4.6L SOHC 29" 26.9" 28.6" 600lbs
4.6L DOHC 28.9" 27.1" 29.6" 576lbs

from gregr

http://home.att.net/~marksmoore/Weights.htm

Some good stuff here.

Greg
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:12 AM   #3
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next up....How well do different headers work?

from 88b2

How many out there have used the 5.0 explorer manifolds? I want to know how they fit...........any problems? Pics would be great. It turns out the "logs" i have for manifolds wont' work so I am wanting to use some explorer ones.

from bobbywalter

i would rather use early bronco manifolds.

from pinellas50

You're talking about exhaust manifolds right?

user posted image

user posted image

I have them on mine. They fit perfect with the AOD but they aren't the most performance oriented pipes out there. I am told that FRPP has reintroduced the performance version of the Explorer pipes and they can be had through Summitt. I haven't been able to confirm that though.

This is the only pic I have of mine. This is the driver's side.

user posted image

from georgiabii

I've got a set of those that I've never installed. the swap went by the wayside but P is correct. they fit nicely during mockup but wasn't the greatest flowing header....

pinellas50 agian

That picture is from when I initially put the motor together. You are right, plug wires do get close. I have since put in new wires and secured them well so there is no contact with the pipe.
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Old 08-19-2007, 06:23 AM   #4
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Let's pin this stuff as well
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Old 05-09-2009, 08:09 PM   #5
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This may help also,If not please remove.


Small block Windsor (made in Windsor, Canada) engines are 260, 289, 302, 302 HO, 351W. Parts are "interchangeable" generally. There are some differences like the 351W has a taller deck height than the other blocks (distance from crank centerline to top of deck), the imbalance changed around 1980 from 28oz to 50oz so the flexplate/flywheel and harmonic balancer must match the year of the crankshaft.

The Cleveland (made in Cleveland, Ohio) engines were the 351C 2V, 351 4V, Boss 302, Boss 351. These have nothing in common with the Windsor engines except displacement. The Cleveland was a stone under 3000rpm but would rev to silly levels because of the enormous ports in the heads, the canted valve arrangement, and the small bearings on the crankshaft. But the blocks had relatively thin walls and couldn't be bored much. Also, because the crank bearings were small, they tended to have oiling issues.

As stated already, the old trick was to modify the Cleveland head to fit the Windsor block because the factory Windsor heads performed poorly compared to the factory Cleveland heads. Over the past decade, that has changed as you can now buy aftermarket heads for Windsors that will beat the Cleveland heads. So the hassle isn't worth while anymore. But you'll still find the old Clevor legend won't die.

The 351M and 400M (Midland not "modified" like the rubes call it) are the bastards of the '70s. They have Cleveland heads on really stout shortblocks and only came in trucks and station wagons. The bottom end was similar to big blocks so high rpm was bad but the Cleveland heads didn't work down low. Thus, this engine has gone the way of the dinosaurs. These are heavy engines that work well in tractors and tow trucks.

The FE series consists of 352, 390, 410, 427, 427 SOHC, 428, 428CJ. These are big blocks. The 427 is the legendary motor in the GT40s and Shelby Cobras and made way over 500hp in factory trim. The 427 SOHC had a single timing chain that was 7 feet long and drove the overhead camshafts in each head. "Sock" or "Cammer" motors made silly power and reved to the moon. Reports of 1000+hp were not uncommon. The FE engines are the NASCAR and NHRA motors of the 60's. They are big engines that make big power. There are lots of aftermarket parts for these and they are expensive.

The 385 series of big block is the 429, 429CJ, Boss 429, 460 introduced in 1969. These have nothing in common with the FE big blocks. They can be taken out to 514 using factory pieces and there is a strong aftermarket for them. All NHRA and IHRA Pro Stock use these engines.
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COPPERHEAD85 View Post
The 351M and 400M (Midland not "modified" like the rubes call it) are the bastards of the '70s. They have Cleveland heads on really stout shortblocks and only came in trucks and station wagons. The bottom end was similar to big blocks so high rpm was bad but the Cleveland heads didn't work down low. Thus, this engine has gone the way of the dinosaurs. These are heavy engines that work well in tractors and tow trucks.
Go Google Jon Kaase. Then Google Jeg's Engine Masters Challenge for the past several years. Then after seeing the 1000hp monsters, tell me again that the 400 is a bastard dinosaur engine.

If it's what you have laying around, use it. I guess with the M-blocks the biggest issue is they have big block bolt patterns unless you get lucky and find a '71 or '73 block with FMX stamped on it, and it'll take Windsor-sized transmissions like an AOD. That's the roadblock I'm up against with wanting to put an AOD in my Gran Torino. I have a 351M in it, a 351M in my parts car, and nothing that I can use to put an AOD in place of the big-block pattern FMX in there now. An E4OD won't fit under the car.

The big Bronco forums have a nice 335-Series tech section. There is plenty you can do to those engines and they have GOBS of low-end torque. Ideal for any truck. And they came in more than station wagons and pickups. Torinos, Thunderbirds, Cougars, and full-size coupes and sedans all got 351M and 400 engines. In fact the 400 was very common in LTD's and Marquises when the 460 was NOT ordered.

I do think my car is going to end up with a 302 or 351W but you never know what I'll come up with. I tell you one thing I won't be coming up with is the $900 for an adapter to bolt the AOD up to the 351M. That adapter comes down under $500 and I darn well might, though! If I could find a way to put a lockup converter that locks automatically in 3rd above 9" vacuum and unlocks below 6", I'd be in GOOD shape. The FMX is a slushbox for sure.

*cue someone to come tell ME that the FMX is good for something, I dare you :P*
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