spark knock/detonation

[dougrousse]

I have a 97 Ranger 2.3 5sp. is there any way to adjust valve timing, does this have a knock sensor ,the truck runs great get about 26-27mpg won't handle the load from the air conditioning once the engine is up to temperature which is not above normal. how about some clues
Thanks Doug

[ranger1999xlt]

mine did that too. What fuel do you run in it? I started to use 91 Octane- Premium, then mine quit. try a higher octane Gas! Good Luck ranger1998xlt

[Wicked_Sludge]

you can "adjust" the valve timing on any engine by adjusting the timing chain/belt (belt in your case).

might be worth your while to clean your MAF and check for vacuum leaks.

[Dave R]

you can "adjust" the valve timing on any engine by adjusting the timing chain/belt (belt in your case).Depends on your definition of "adjust", you can 'adjust' the cam timing which will 'adjust' the valve timing.

[Neelybd]

I want to adjust mine also, but I don't have a timing belt, it's all computer controlled. I have a '96

[Wicked_Sludge]

you still have a timing belt. all engines need to drive the valves somehow, and thats either by chain or belt.

but its not something you usually "adjust". a jumped timing chain/belt will usually cause pretty severe driveability problems.

[dougrousse]

got any idea on how to clean MAF , when I talked about adjusting timing back in the olden days you could adjust timing by turning the distributer,back when they had distributers

[ranger1999xlt]

the MAF is right on your factory air tubing. take the cover off, but be VERY CAREFULL AND DO NOT TOUCH THE MAF WHEN YOU TAKE IT OFF. Clean it with brake parts cleaner and CAREFULLY put it back in. I repeat- DO NOT TOUCH THE MAF AT ALL, there are tiny little springs that can break. Try that and see if it helps!

[Wicked_Sludge]

when I talked about adjusting timing back in the olden days you could adjust timing by turning the distributer

i know how to adjust timing on a distributored engine (if 1993 is "back in the day"). you asked how to adjust the valve timing. ignition timing and valve timing are two very different animals. while you cant adjust the ignition timing on your truck, you CAN adjust the valve timing.

there are tiny little springs that can break.

springs? not in a MAFS. theres an element..but its inside the sensor and protected by a metal plate.

to clean the MAFS, as ranger1998xtl said, remove it (you can touch it all you want, you wont hurt it unless maybe you throw it on the ground). then spray inside the sampling tube with O2 sensor safe carb cleaner (not brake cleaner). wait for it to dry then re-install.

[jmzneal]

you can also brake out a hack saw and dremel and gut the middle part of the MAF out and just leave the barrel....polish the sides up and leave the back side where the plate covers the back of the "elements" open....i just did it to mine and it helped mid range alot...http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo03/a6/f4/6f93e16fabf3.jpg
and if you advance the cam timing i heard it's 9*Degrees for good low end torque...

[BDAB]

check on that 9*........ that might be an interference type engine..... if it is then 9* might damage the engine. I could only go 6* with my DOHC Saturn with out causing major damage (because it already has some advance when built).... been 9* on everything else (even a DOHC 3.4L toyota v6)


When ever you advance the cam timing always turn the engine over by hand before starting unless you used a timing set that already is either marked specifically for your engine or has the proper advance built into it.

[jmzneal]

:blush: good point...i didn't know they made rangers with interference motors...i'd like to find a preset timing set that would make it a lot easier.

[Dave R]

2.3 Lima motors are non-interference, you could run it at 50* if you wanted to.

Personally, I never felt any significant benefit to the bottom end when I advanced the cam more than 3-4*. At 8-10 degrees you'll start to loose top end.

[Bob Ayers]

Everybody seems to be confusing valve timing, with ignition timing!!!

[Explorin94]

Everybody seems to be confusing valve timing, with ignition timing!!!

DING DING DING DING DING .............. WINNER!

[Wicked_Sludge]

actually, they were talking about cam timing, not ignition timing.

[Bob Ayers]

actually, they were talking about cam timing, not ignition timing.


Well, the first post started out about spark knock, and also mentioned valve timing, which are not related at all! Spark knock is usually caused by an over advanced ignition timing. And then your post #3, followed along about valve timing being adjusted by the timing belt, which isn't true at all.
Valve timing can have slight adjustments by an adjustable cam sprocket (or cam gear).

[Wicked_Sludge]

spark knock can be caused by quite a few factors...only one of which is ignition timing.

since the ignition timing is usually determined baised on the cams position, changing your cam/valve timing would also change your ignition timing.

[Bob Ayers]

spark knock can be caused by quite a few factors...only one of which is ignition timing.

since the ignition timing is usually determined baised on the cams position, changing your cam/valve timing would also change your ignition timing.

Not true again!!! The cam timing has no change on the ignition timing with a 97 2.3L with EDIS. And even the older 2.3L with a distributor was not driven off the camshaft.

[Wicked_Sludge]

...since the ignition timing is usually determined baised on the cams position...

[Dave R]

...since the ignition timing is usually determined baised on the cams position...

Umm, NO, the ignition timing is solely based on the piston's position in the bore and somewhat relatedly, since the piston is attached to it, the crankshaft's position. When they say "Before Top Dead Center" they ain't talking about the cam.

[Wicked_Sludge]

geeze, why are we even argueing about this.

in engines that use cam position sensors or distributors, the ignition timing is based on the CAM timing (which is in turn based on the piston position). only engines with a CRANK position sensor take timing readings directly from the crank.

[Bob Ayers]

geeze, why are we even argueing about this.

in engines that use cam position sensors or distributors, the ignition timing is based on the CAM timing (which is in turn based on the piston position). only engines with a CRANK position sensor take timing readings directly from the crank.

Why can't you admit your WRONG?????

There isn't a vehicle made that only has a cam position sensor. They ALL will have a crank position sensor!! The CAM position sensor is only used to detect misfires with an OBD-2 system

Give it a break!!!

[Wicked_Sludge]

plenty of newer rigs base spark off the cam position sensor.

and how is a CPS supposed to detect misfires? :icon_confused:

[Dave R]

plenty of newer rigs base spark off the cam position sensor.
Name a few.


and how is a CPS supposed to detect misfires?
A Cam Position Sensor cannot detect a misfire. A Crank Position Sensor can detect a misfire, it shows up as a frequency change in the output of the sensor.

Speaking only of the Ranger 2.3 system, since that is what I am familiar with, the Cam Position Sensor consists of only one "lump" on the back of the oil pump drive sprocket's belt guide. The Cam Position Sensor only tells the computer when the #1 cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke, since the Crank Sensor can't tell the difference between one stroke and another. To it TDC is TDC, only the cam dictates which stroke is which. The computer uses that info for injector timing, not ignition timing. You unplug the cam sensor and the engine will still run. It takes it a bit longer to start as it has to guess on injector timing until the engine starts.

[Wicked_Sludge]

most rigs utilizing coil-on-plug ignition systems (eg, 4.6 and 5.4's, along with some others) rely on the CMP input to select the proper ignition coil to fire. whether the PCM can adapt and run without this signal, im not sure as ive never tried to run one unplugged.

[Dave R]

most rigs utilizing coil-on-plug ignition systems (eg, 4.6 and 5.4's, along with some others) rely on the CMP input to select the proper ignition coil to fire.
Yes, but the computer does not rely on info from the cam sensor to decide WHEN to fire the coil, only which coil to fire.

[Bob Ayers]

A Cam Position Sensor cannot detect a misfire. A Crank Position Sensor can detect a misfire, it shows up as a frequency change in the output of the sensor.



The CMP signal is needed, along with the CKP signal to determine a misfire. Here is a good discription on how Fords EDIS operates:

http://rockledge.home.comcast.net/RangerPictureGallery/DIS_EDIS.htm

[Dave R]

Good page but it sort of proved our point. DIS does not have a Cam Position Sensor, only a CID.

[Wicked_Sludge]

as the page specified, a CID and cam position sensor are the same thing. a "you say tomatoe" kind of deal.

from that site:

the DIS system utilizes inputs from both the crankshaft position sensor and the cylinder identification sensor...to control ignition timing

The CID signal provides the DIS Module with the information it needs to synchronize the ignition coils in the proper sequence (timing).

the cam sensor (or CID if you like) is used in determining ignition timing :beer:

[Bob Ayers]

as the page specified, a CID and cam position sensor are the same thing. a "you say tomatoe" kind of deal.

from that site:





the cam sensor (or CID if you like) is used in determining ignition timing :beer:

It looks like you are only reading what you want to read! You completely missed this information:

"On other setups, such as the 2.3L Ranger, the PIP and CID signals are both generated from the crankshaft"

"EDIS, on the other hand, utilizes a single input from the crankshaft position sensor"


And to refresh your memory, the original poster has a 2.3L, AND EDIS!!!


We are still waiting for you tell us what vehicles( just one will do) ONLY have a CMP........

[Dave R]

the cam sensor (or CID if you like) is used in determining ignition timing
Yeah right, just can't quit can you.

- 2. The CID signal from the camshaft position sensor. The CID signal provides the DIS Module with the information it needs to synchronize the ignition coils in the proper sequence.

- 3. The SPOUT (spark out) signal back from the PCM. The SPOUT signal contains optimal spark timing and dwell time data.
Note the SPOUT provides the WHEN to fire the coil NOT the CID. It only supplies the which coil to fire info.



A loss of the CID signal will not result in shutdown. Instead, the system will remember the proper sequence and continue to fire the coils in order to maintain engine operation. If the DIS Module does not receive valid CID input during engine cranking, random coil synchronization will be attempted. Therefore, several start attempts (cycling the ignition switch from OFF to START) may be required to start the engine.
Any further questions? Quit picking out the parts you want in an attempt to save face.

:annoyed:

[Wicked_Sludge]

good lord...i NEVER said the original posters engine used the CID/CMS for timing! i said many engines do....and that site specifies this is true.

i also NEVER said engines existed with only a CMS. maybe you guys should scan over my posts again...as your putting words in my mouth.

knowing which coil to fire as well as when to fire it is part of timing.

i know the CPS provides timing input and i know some engines only have a CPS. im not talking about those engines. im talking about engines that have a CID/CMS. in those engines, the CID/CMS is used to determine which coil to fire.....which is part of "timing".

i cant possibly make myself any clearer.

[Bob Ayers]

good lord...i NEVER said the original posters engine used the CID/CMS for timing! i said many engines do....and that site specifies this is true.

i also NEVER said engines existed with only a CMS. maybe you guys should scan over my posts again...as your putting words in my mouth.

knowing which coil to fire as well as when to fire it is part of timing.

i know the CPS provides timing input and i know some engines only have a CPS. im not talking about those engines. im talking about engines that have a CID/CMS. in those engines, the CID/CMS is used to determine which coil to fire.....which is part of "timing".

i cant possibly make myself any clearer.

To try and weasel out of where you have been wrong, you have messed up the terms for the sensors. Here is the correct designation:

CMP = Camshaft Position Sensor
CKP = Crankshaft Position Sensor

[Bob Ayers]

good lord...i NEVER said the original posters engine used the CID/CMS for timing! i said many engines do....and that site specifies this is true.

i also NEVER said engines existed with only a CMS. maybe you guys should scan over my posts again...as your putting words in my mouth.

knowing which coil to fire as well as when to fire it is part of timing.

i know the CPS provides timing input and i know some engines only have a CPS. im not talking about those engines. im talking about engines that have a CID/CMS. in those engines, the CID/CMS is used to determine which coil to fire.....which is part of "timing".

i cant possibly make myself any clearer.


Here is a statement you made (post #18) that is TOTALLY WRONG:

"since the ignition timing is usually determined baised on the cams position, changing your cam/valve timing would also change your ignition timing."


CLEARLY WRONG!!!!!

[Dave R]

knowing which coil to fire as well as when to fire it is part of timing.
Wrong, even if the CMP has crapped out the engine will still start and time itself just fine. When cranking it takes the computer a bit longer to figure out which coil to fire first but once it has the engine running it'll continue to run just fine.

Why don't you go out and pull the plug on your CMP and then take your truck for a drive.

[Wicked_Sludge]

To try and weasel out of where you have been wrong, you have messed up the terms for the sensors. Here is the correct designation:

CMP = Camshaft Position Sensor
CKP = Crankshaft Position Sensor

bob, did you know what i meant when i put "CMS" and "CPS"? if so then starting yet a new argument is pointless.

dave, i know the engine will still run with a failed CMP...i never said it wouldnt. but regardless, the PCM DOES use the signal to determine WHICH coil to fire.

which is exactly what ive said for the last 5 posts. im tired of going around in circles with you guys. ive literally run out of ways to explain my point, so im sorry if you dont understand. :dunno:

[Bob Ayers]

bob, did you know what i meant when i put "CMS" and "CPS"? if so then starting yet a new argument is pointless.

dave, i know the engine will still run with a failed CMP...i never said it wouldnt. but regardless, the PCM DOES use the signal to determine WHICH coil to fire.

which is exactly what ive said for the last 5 posts. im tired of going around in circles with you guys. ive literally run out of ways to explain my point, so im sorry if you dont understand. :dunno:


Why can't you just admit you are worng??????