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351 Cleveland

What would be the better choice?

  • Windsor

    Votes: 11 47.8%
  • Cleveland

    Votes: 12 52.2%

  • Total voters
    23

daniel3507

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So I have a lead on a 351 Cleveland for the 70 Bronco. Dont know much about it as of yet other than its "built". Said he put another one just like it into a 74 Bronco and it almost pulls the front tires off the ground. He is asking 2K for it right now. What are the main differences in the Windsor and Cleveland? I have heard people say the Windsor is better but at the same time it seems like a lot of the people I talk to want the Cleveland.
 


np205

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Windsor would be easier for parts, Cleveland for cool factor. Get parts for them out of New Zealand. A Cleveland would eat a 350 chebby. Depends on if it's 2 or 4 barrel heads your rpm range could be kinda high for a power curve. All depends on what you want. I think that the Cleveland has a big block bell housing pattern I think, don't quote me.
 

HOT_ROD_CAR

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Check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwBSQ1IxsNo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVt_lqaKnrc&feature=related

Actually, the 351 Cleveland has the same bell housing as the 5.0l (302). The 2V or the 2V Aussie heads would be better for Bronco as far as more torque at lower rpm's due to the smaller valves (Aussie 2V heads are quench design which raises the compression ratio also). But, if you're going to rev it up, go with the 4V Cobra Jet or 4V Boss heads. Here's some more information...

In the small capacity displacements, the 289/302 was a great little engine - and it went on to become even greater in the eighties and nineties - but as car size increased in the U.S. Ford decided that they needed larger capacity from the small block to generate more torque to move the heavier cars. Hence they developed the 351W, but even from its inception, Ford appreciated that while the 351W gave the capacity required, it was a marginal engine from the point of view of developing more and more horsepower as the performance wars of the late sixties escalated. So Ford designed the 351C.

The 351C was designed from the top down with the major amount of effort put into designing the best and most efficient cylinder heads that they could to allow the engine to breathe, and so to rev.

The 351C has a canted valve cylinder head, with splayed valves set at slight angles to one another, unlike the 351W which has parallel valve stems. This canted valve arrangement makes the 351C cylinder heads bigger - wider - than those of the 351W, and as a result it has wider rocker covers. As an aid to identification, the 351W exhaust manifold to cylinder head surface is almost vertical as viewed from the ends of the engine, whereas the 351C has an exhaust manifold to cylinder head surface which sits at 45 degrees and is as near parallel to the side of the block. This can be difficult to see if an engine is in place.

Ford U.S. came up with two basic versions of their 351C, the 2V and the 4V. The 2V stands for, as it does most usually, 2 venturis, and describes a two barrelled carburettor. American 2V 351Clevelands came equipped with two barrelled carbs and as such the engine was designed to be the common version of the engine fitted to non performance cars. To this end, Ford U.S. designed a set of heads for the 2V that had smaller inlet and exhaust ports to promote better low down torque. These small port 2V heads required their own inlet and exhaust manifolds to mate up with the heads and they also had smaller valves. Initial rating of the 2V engine was 250hp.

The 4V was the performance version of the 351C, and was so named because it was designed to have a 4 venturi or four barrelled carburettor. To feed the extra fuel through the cylinders, the 4V heads had much larger ports than the 2V, and as result required their own matching inlet and exhaust manifolds, and larger valves. The combination of bigger, more effective 4 barrel carburettor, bigger valves and bigger ports ensured that the fuel mixture could get into and the exhaust gasses get out of the combustion chamber more effectively than in the 2V heads, hence the 4V engine would rev better and as a consequence, produce more power. The 351C 4V was rated, in 1970, at 300hp.

Engineering is often a compromise, and such was the case with the 4V. The valves, and especially the ports were so big that the inlet mixture could slow down in its passage into the combustion chamber. This decrease in velocity, most noticable at low revs, left the 4V versions of the 351C feeling kind of sluggish as the cylinders struggled to fill. The 2V, with its smaller ports and valves, could keep the mixture velocity up which promoted better cylinder filling, and gave the 2V its impression of greater low down power, torque and flexibility. Of course, this is what Ford U.S. wanted, promoting the 2V as the torquey grocery getter engine, and the 4V as the “let it rev and feel the power” engine.

In the U.S. for the very brief period that the musclecar/horsepower craze continued during the 351C’s early life, the 4V spawned a small clutch of developments:- the 1971 Boss 351; the 351CobraJets, or CJs; and four bolt mains caps.

This is where the 2V and 4V descriptive terms become somewhat entwined. The distinct separation that applied in the U.S. between 2V and 4V ensured that a 2V Cleveland had a two barrel carb and inlet manifold, small inlet and exhaust ports and an enlarged chamber volume, while the 4V Cleveland had a four barrel carb, large inlet and exhaust ports and reduced size chamber volume which created a higher compression ratio. Now the Australians introduced a 2V head that took either a two or a four barrel carb inlet manifold, and had a large, but not as large as the U.S. 2V, open chamber size, plus, for further confusion, they introduced a 302C engine that had 2V heads which had a two barrel carb but a chamber volume smaller than anything the U.S. had offered, even on their highest performance Clevelands.

I'm running a 4V dual plane aluminum intake on a set of 2V heads. It really woke up the engine! Hope this helps.
 
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Twisted_Steel

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Ford engines come in "families", such as the "FE" engines (352, 360, 390, 427, 428). The Windsor engine family includes the 300 inline 6, 289, 302, 351W, and 351C. The transmission bellhousing that fits a 300 inline 6 banger will also bolt to all the engines in that family.
 

1badexplorer

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Ford engines come in "families", such as the "FE" engines (352, 360, 390, 427, 428). The Windsor engine family includes the 300 inline 6, 289, 302, 351W, and 351C. The transmission bellhousing that fits a 300 inline 6 banger will also bolt to all the engines in that family.
Wrong, The 351C is in the 335 series motor family along with the 351M and 400M. They all use the same valve covers, oil pans, along with many other parts. But the 351C uses a small block bell housing and the 351M & 400 use the big block bell housing.

A 351C would be awesome for in the bronco espesially if you have some low gears cause a 4v 351C loves to rev. I gov 1 in my 72 Mach 1 and it runs great between 2,500-5,000 rpm. I'm running 3.91 gears and still can get 13 mpg around town and 17+ on the highway with mine running a 28" tall rear tire and a 4spd.
 

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I dont know much about the 351c but i have been told they have oiling problems.If i am wrong feel free to corect me.
 

country0001

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Sorry, Have to disagree w most of ya'll. Screw the Cleveland. Go with a Windsor. There is more of them, which means u can readily get parts for them w/out having to search for everything. They were good for race but thats about it. For dependability reasons the 351W has my vote.
 

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I dont know much about the 351c but i have been told they have oiling problems.If i am wrong feel free to corect me.
Supposedly. Mellings made a little kit of address the problem. It restricted oil to the top end and increased it to the bottom end. It was easy to install. I did it, but didn't have the problem before I did it.

I had a '71 motor with closed chambered heads. I put TRW 3779 (I think that's the number) pistons in it which reduced the (I think) 10.7 comp down to 9.8 so it could be run with a little more advance. I orignally had the motor in a 3,000# car with 4.56s and it had great response--pulled to 7,000rpm. When I hurt the 289 in my Galaxie, I put this motor in temporarily. Even with a very mild cam and a 2-plane manifold and a small AFB, it wasn't good with the 3.0 ring gear. It would go 140mph, but it was soggy. So I put in a 472" 460 and then I was happy.

I love the 351C 4V--in a light car with lots of gear and a high-stall converter. But in a heavy car with a gear suitable for cruising 80mph on I5 in souther Cali, I didn't like it. A 351W or 351C 2V would be better. I would probably want an EFI 5.8 if I were forced to use some version of 351.

'71 351C 4V in '64 Galaxie w/ 3.00 gears?:fie:


'71 460 in '64 Galaxie w/ 3.00 gears? :)
 

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Also, just to add 2 cents, the 300 Inline is not a member of the Windsor engine family, Windsor, was named, because they were manufacutred in Windsor Ontario Canada, The 351 Cleveland in Cleveland, (which later produced the M series and the 460, i believe).

The 300 was actualy produced in Lima OH, so it techinally would be in the same family as the 2.3L if you want to go on a strict manufacturing family basis.

It was always my understanding the 351W is better reliabilty and aftermarket wise, and the C was the performer.

The 400/351M was basicaly smogged verisons of the 351C.

If i were going with a Windsor it would be the Mid 80s 351 H.O. Strongest one ever made.

later,
Dustin
 

HOT_ROD_CAR

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I dont know much about the 351c but i have been told they have oiling problems.If i am wrong feel free to corect me.
I used a Melling high volume oil pump when I rebuilt my 351 Cleveland, and I have had no problems. :icon_thumby:
 

Will

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The 400/351M was basicaly smogged verisons of the 351C.
Not at all. The 351C was going to be totally replaced with the 351W. But 351W production could not be ramped up enough to keep up with demand so Ford made a hybrid--they put a 351W crank into a 400 block--both had 3" mains--and that's the 351M. They used the same rods and made up some extra-tall pistons to make up the difference. The tall-block Cleveland was only supposed to be a 400 and the 351 was supposed to revert solely to the Windsor.
 

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Sorry for that bit of missinfo, i dont know a whole lot about the C's.
 

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Wrong, The 351C is in the 335 series motor family along with the 351M and 400M. They all use the same valve covers, oil pans, along with many other parts. But the 351C uses a small block bell housing and the 351M & 400 use the big block bell housing.

A 351C would be awesome for in the bronco espesially if you have some low gears cause a 4v 351C loves to rev. I gov 1 in my 72 Mach 1 and it runs great between 2,500-5,000 rpm. I'm running 3.91 gears and still can get 13 mpg around town and 17+ on the highway with mine running a 28" tall rear tire and a 4spd.
13 mpg City and 17 mpg highway with a 4V? That's great! What carb are you running? Just curious. :headbang:
 

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from a money standpoint you're much better off with a 351W. There are a lot more parts available, and they're lighter than a Cleveland. BUT, they have a weaker bottom end than a Cleveland, so you would want to replace all that if you really want to make power.

My cousin is putting a '72 Cleveland in his '67 Mustang, mostly just for the cool factor, but we are going to build it, already have aluminum heads for it, should be cool.
 

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