Busted front shaft, what the heck... [Archive]

compleckz

08-14-2007, 08:21 PM

so i went out on my grandfathers property tonight and tried to go through this big ditch.. i drove in at an angle, right front first.. the left rear came off the ground a few feet, truck felt a little unstable, so i backed out. the truck backed out easily, so i tried again.. i got into the ditch almost completely, but my front bumper hit the other side of the ditch, so i had no choice but to back up.. my right rear was still off the ground and no locker in the rear yet... so fronts only driving me, and BFG a/t's (i now hate these tires) they gummed up and i wasnt going anywhere.

i had my girlfriend come down with her jeep and i hooked up a strap, and she tried to tug me out, after a few attempts it started to come, i was backing out then bang the right front slipjoint female shaft broke at the ears.. i had full circle clips on 760x joints, i clearanced the slipjoint shaft like in the tech article.. oh and the cap on the slip joint got popped off during all of this, i wasnt able to find it in the dirt.. and i did have the wheel cut when this happened, but i wasnt flooring it :(

this was in loose dirt, front end has lock-right and 4.56 gears, and c-clip elim.. i cant believe it broke this easy.. i beat on it much harder before all this work.. this is the first time i really tested it this hard though..

projectnitemare

08-14-2007, 08:51 PM

I can assume the joint was at an angle when it broke, the locker and having the wheels turned didn't probably help it either. U-joints will take much less torque to break when running at an angle and the changes in speed from having wheels turned then the stress of a locker. That was a lot going on for those poor little shafts. I don't even bother with the full clips anymore. I use the stock clips then tack the caps on. I usually break the shafts before the joints need replaced.

Matt

compleckz

08-14-2007, 08:58 PM

is it possible to get caps separately? the ujoint is fine.. i only found 1 cap in the dirt though, should be able to clean it out and regrease/reuse that one.. i need the shaft though, anyone got one? ;) i still cant believe it broke so easy.. next time i'm definitely tacking them, too much work to snap them so easy. maybe im just too rough with it..

4x4junkie

08-14-2007, 09:41 PM

You have any pics of the broken pieces?

The way you describe how it broke, sounds like something was bound up, or maybe a defective part?

No, you can't get caps seperately, but you could try pulling ones off another joint maybe if you have one laying around.

FWIW, that part is the same on the D44 TTB, so you could keep your eyes peeled for one of those to replace it as well (you'll have to swap the opposite shaft though)

crbnunit

08-14-2007, 10:26 PM

If you popped the slip-joint cap, you might have bound up the shaft and popped the ears. Doubt it but the extra stress probably didn't help any. Those shafts are fragile. Putting a load on them in reverse is always an iffy proposition. That puts all the load up front. Throw in a locker and cut wheels, something is going to pop.

compleckz

08-14-2007, 10:41 PM

http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/busted_shaft/busted_shaft%20001-sm.jpg
http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/busted_shaft/busted_shaft%20004-sm.jpg
im hoping this somehow happened after the ears broke, otherwise it looks like the clips came off and i just suck at grinding? so i guess that joint is junk now..

http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/busted_shaft/busted_shaft%20006-sm.jpg
http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/busted_shaft/busted_shaft%20007-sm.jpg

there are more pics in that dir if interested

compleckz

08-14-2007, 11:44 PM

what should i expect to pay for axles? bronco graveyard has a new slip joint for $59+ ship.. someone has both the center slip joint axle shafts on ebay used for $57 shipped.. or a compelte shaft set $143 shipped.. the local junker lists 'rh shaft' as $100 i assume thats for all 4 shaft pieces.. none of them seem to have a seal on the slip joint.. whichs costs freakin' $25 at the dealer!

4x4junkie

08-15-2007, 12:24 AM

You don't need the small seal inside there, just as long as the outer boot is intact (just hose-clamp it down good). (be sure to use a Moly-type CV joint grease on it)

$59 for a NEW part sounds like a decent deal to me. Junkyard shafts should be around $30-60 depending on your area (generally includes both shafts attached to one u-joint).

Something doesn't look quite right to me on that break though, it looks busted downward more on on the same two sides (if that makes sense), rather than the diagonally opposite sides (which would be the case if nothing but a torque overload was present).

How is the axleshaft where it passes through the "window" on the passengerside beam? Could it be rubbing there at all? (causing the shaft to bind by being forced sideways)? The broken cap on the opposing shaft would seem to support this also.

(good pics, BTW)

Thumper113

08-15-2007, 02:01 AM

I broke mine once also. Due to a severe angle bind (and a holeshot)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Warrlord/Damage/carnage2.jpg

compleckz

08-15-2007, 10:12 AM

well i did clearance the window in the axle a bit when i had the shafts out last time.. i also painted where i ground, so im gonna go check and see if there is any wear in the paint, or on the shaft...

compleckz

08-15-2007, 10:46 AM

very minimal wear on the shaft, more like a few little rub marks.. the window looks like it did get rubbed just a little bit on the drivers-side of it.. the inside of the drivers beam has 2 little gouges in it... but thats probably from when the axle broke.. but really nothing looks severe enough to bind the axle.. maybe i'll grab some pics after lunch.

and something interesting i noticed.. the pass side far outer stub shaft, the yoke holes are already worn, when i bend the 2 axles at the joint, the caps dont move with the yoke, the yoke just moves around them with ease. :pissedoff:

that $59+ shipping is JUST for the one i broke, not both shafts together.. a few people have sent me some offers on here, we'll see.. i plan to get another u-joint, and tack the caps this time.. i should open up that window just a little bit more to be safe... could the c-clip eliminator have cause any of this? it seemed to work just fine when i assembled it... had good pressure at the spindle, it didnt fall apart, i had to undo the hose clamps when i took the axles out... its a 30ppi spring..

compleckz

08-15-2007, 11:40 AM

cell phone pics:
http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/busted_shaft/Image001.jpg
http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/busted_shaft/Image003.jpg

this is after i drove further down into the ditch, it was MUCH less tippy.. maybe cuz my front bumper was supported by the opposite side of the bank :icon_twisted:

the stock springs flexed much better that these skyjacker 6's and the belltechs....

they definately stuffed more.
http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/06.05.29_tunnel_rd/img_007-sm.JPG
http://ranger.spedmonkey.com/06.05.29_tunnel_rd/img_005-sm.JPG

4x4junkie

08-15-2007, 06:12 PM

and something interesting i noticed.. the pass side far outer stub shaft, the yoke holes are already worn, when i bend the 2 axles at the joint, the caps dont move with the yoke, the yoke just moves around them with ease. :pissedoff:

That has got to be from the shaft hitting the beam window (the lateral force being placed on it is what's stretching the yokes). IIRC, that was happening to CheapthrillEX also, I'll bet his was from the shaft hitting the window also.

STick a grinder in there and open that thing up more. That shaft needs to be able to move around quite a bit in there (I widened the hell out of mine, and it still wants to rub a bit).

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/702000-702999/702959_49.jpg (http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/702000-702999/702959_49_full.jpg)

I assume there's no problems on your driverside shaft (joint) at all?

compleckz

08-15-2007, 08:37 PM

haven't checked the drivers side shaft yet, but after the pass. side snapped, i unlocked the pass. hub, cuz i still needed the help of the left to try and get unstuck, and it spun and made no bad noises :)

the pass shaft has no where near the amount of scuffing as the shaft in the picture you posted.. just a few very small scuffs (lighter colored rust :rolleyes:), and not in a circle all the way around.. and the window is only slightly rubbed on..

im defiantly going to open the window more, i ordered 4 more 760x's to build some spare shafts, and repair this set.. i plan to tack the caps too, we'll see how that works. :icon_welder:

thanks for all the help, let me know if u have anymore pointers!

4x4junkie

08-15-2007, 09:02 PM

thanks for all the help, let me know if u have anymore pointers!

Just make sure you don't overheat the cap while welding it and smoke all the grease out (IIRC, there's a plastic bushing in there that could melt too).

When you get it all back together, see if you can find someone with a forklift and get them to lift it up by each REAR tire to flex it out and make sure the shaft can still rotate freely (alternatively you can take the coils out (frame supported on stands), then use a floor jack to cycle the suspension each way and check it).

Good luck on it :icon_thumby:

TireIron

08-15-2007, 09:21 PM

and with full circle clips you really shouldn't have an issue needing to tack the caps in... It definitly seems like something pushed it odd and caused the ears to snap in a different place then normal...

compleckz

08-15-2007, 11:02 PM

i was only going to tack them in cuz it seems quicker than grinding. it took me some time to grind them.. i put a new wheel on my grinder, but it couldnt quite reach far enough back, the head on it is pretty large.. pretty cumbersome to deal with...

and i broke a brand new dremel trying to do the finishing work, i kept burning through bits, now i cant get the bit out.. i actually forgot about it till now.. grr.. i wonder how long that warranty was.

hitech_hick

08-16-2007, 11:21 AM

Blur2u

08-16-2007, 07:32 PM

I broke my passenger side front. I wasn't really wheelin' that hard....I didn't think anyway. I am pretty sure the little half c-clip just came off though. I thought that I just broke my RH Inner (the one attached to the wheel shaft) but after inspection it looks like the wheel stub axle has a good size gash/crack in it also. I guess I need to replace both of them.

I think I am just going to get a whole set of axles and build put them together and replace the whole deal. I want to put the new Spicer U-joints in the driver side and do the full circle snap ring mod to it also while I am at it. Have a couple of questions though.

1. The U-joint on the passenger side that is closer to the front diff, is that the same as the outside and should I replace it also?

2. I see people posting about tacking the caps on, what are you tacking them onto, the axle or U-joint?

3. what is the C-clip Elim mod and what is the purpose?

If anyone has some axles they will sale me PM me!! I need to get this 4wd back up and working so I can get back off-road!

Here are some pics of my break:

(sorry they are still in the truck since I still drive it)

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/Blur2u/100_1759.jpg

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/Blur2u/100_1758.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/Blur2u/100_1757.jpg

compleckz

08-16-2007, 08:09 PM

1. The U-joint on the passenger side that is closer to the front diff, is that the same as the outside and should I replace it also?

2. I see people posting about tacking the caps on, what are you tacking them onto, the axle or U-joint?

3. what is the C-clip Elim mod and what is the purpose?

1. if you want strength, replace all 3 front u-joints with spicer 5-760x's, they are all the same size.

2. people tack weld the caps to the axles so they dont spin in the yoke, and dont come out of the yoke.. (if they were tacked to the u-joint, it would defeat the purpose of the u-joint)

3. the c-clip eliminator mod is basically adding a spring within the boot over the slip yoke, which pushes the axles apart, into the diff, and into the spindle. this is so you dont need to run a c-clip on the inner axle, so you dont need to remove the pumpkin everytime you need to remove the axle. (you'll need to do this the first time though, since the c-clip is currently holding the axle in)

Blur2u

08-16-2007, 09:29 PM

2. people tack weld the caps to the axles so they dont spin in the yoke, and dont come out of the yoke.. (if they were tacked to the u-joint, it would defeat the purpose of the u-joint)

:damnit1:

OK, I wasn't thinking....man I should have realized that.

Todd

08-20-2007, 09:26 AM

FWIW, that part is the same on the D44 TTB, so you could keep your eyes peeled for one of those to replace it as well (you'll have to swap the opposite shaft though)

So you are saying that the female part of the slip shaft on a 44 is the same spline as a 35?

Randy M.

08-20-2007, 01:48 PM

I would take the time to modify the shafts for the snap rings. I see guys tack the caps all the time and everyone that does eats u-joints. Even just tacking them will overheat the grease and cause it to boil.

4x4junkie

08-20-2007, 09:12 PM

So you are saying that the female part of the slip shaft on a 44 is the same spline as a 35?

Yep, both same.

31 spline with a 30° pressure angle.

Jrod-13

08-22-2007, 01:21 AM

I've never had any issues welding caps(or any of my buddies)
I always lay 4 beads on it, about 1/2" long. Never have to worry about spitting caps, stretching ears, or breaking ears. Plus welding them is WAY stronger than just clips.
Since welding, I've never had a ear failure(only actual shafts breaking)

compleckz

05-21-2008, 11:42 AM

back from the dead, i ended up getting a friend to tack the 760xcaps on a new set of axles...

no problems for months until now, 4 of the tacks failed when my coil popped out, the bumpstop bent and the frame came crashing down on the ttbeam, over flexing wicked and popped 4 of the tack welds on the right outer, i put the coil back in and drove out the trail 4wd, not knowing the tacks had broken, and ended up spinning the caps in the yoke, and now i have another egged out long-shaft from the pass side.

the other joints are still perfectly fine, i took my spare axles and made up a new shaft, ready to be tacked again. need to secure the coil tops now though before i do any highspeed wheelin' (front end leaving the ground) :)

i have a question though, where are people getting greaseable u-joints? the only ones i can find are $20/each-- which is ridiculous for crappy ujoints, when i can get the strong 760x's for $23 each off ebay.

what i want to do is take some of my old shafts with egged out yokes, install GREASABLE joints, so i can have the caps FULLY welded to the ears, then regrease them--and use them for spare emergency shafts. i know they will not be as strong as the 760x's, but they will be good for spares..

94Rangeron37s

05-21-2008, 12:20 PM

if you try to fully weld around the out side of the u joint cap it will only cause the shaft to be weaker, heat actually hurts the axle shafts, that is why the guys that tack the caps only tack them, i tried the fully welding around the cap thinking it would be stronger and it broke at the base of the ears, alot easier then a none tacked cap with a stock clip.

compleckz

05-21-2008, 01:42 PM

im only running 2 tacks per cap now on press fit caps, do you guys think 4 tacks would be good enough to hold a cap in a rounded yoke?

it may have been on the old forums, but someone was saying they fully weld the caps on egged yokes, with greaseable joint.. and had great success doing it.

Blur2u

05-21-2008, 01:43 PM

back from the dead, i ended up getting a friend to tack the 760xcaps on a new set of axles...

no problems for months until now, 4 of the tacks failed when my coil popped out...... need to secure the coil tops now though before i do any highspeed wheelin' (front end leaving the ground) :)

Yeah, I have a couple pieces of still cable holding mine in place. I didn't tack mine, just did the full circle snap ring mod. Seems to be working good so far! I think that's good idea you have there on the spares...it will at least get you out of the trails!!

4x4junkie

05-21-2008, 09:08 PM

I'm not sure if welding the cap in an egged yoke will hold up, the cap no longer has any support from the yoke (will have a gap around it) and would probably just crack when torque is put on it.

If the yoke is egged out, I think a circle clip may be the only option (lets the cap move so it's against the yoke under load).

I had a shaft with a very slightly egged yoke on my Ranger that I ran with circle clips for awhile, no problems (that shaft is now a spare).

Oh, Umm...

You need this too lol

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/232000-232999/232950_16_full.jpg

compleckz

05-21-2008, 09:36 PM

i had an entire set of shafts get egged out with full-clips, and i ended up breaking 3 of those shafts, i figured it was because i continued to run like that.

i have since gone to tacked caps as i stated, and haven't had a problem since, and i've done a lot more hardcore ish than i was doing when i broke/egged the other axles.

my beam window is clearanced A TON, and i am bump stopped.. i have cycled without the coils and have NO rubbing of shafts up front.. i did this all before when i built the front shafts the first time..

my yokes are egged to the point of the caps slipping in and out by hand, and from what i've seen on my truck, when they get that bad, something is gonna break.

compleckz

05-21-2008, 09:38 PM

oh and did u make those coil spring retainer j-hooks, or buy them?

http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-33224_upper_coil_spring_retainer.htm

Will

05-21-2008, 09:39 PM

Make sure nothing binds. That's the best way to keep from busting joints. Grind that window out until your head fits through it. The forklift thing is good, but it doesn't take dynamic loads into account. It will go much further when you are trying to goose it out of a 2-wheel teeter then just holding a wheel up.

blackbronc

05-21-2008, 09:49 PM

d44s are 30 spline from everything i've ever seen, at least the axles are.

4x4junkie

05-21-2008, 10:00 PM

I bet they got egged from when they were binding on the beam window.

The shaft I had got egged from the trunnion distorting it after spitting a cap. The cap was still tight enough to prevent me pushing it through with my finger, but I could tap it through just using a screwdriver handle.
I ran it like that for maybe 1½ years before I swapped it out while upgrading to 760s.

The coil clip in that pic I believe was Superlift. They're pretty cheap ($12 pr. IIRC). You could so easily make them out of some 1" wide x 3/16" thick strip steel though.

d44s are 30 spline from everything i've ever seen, at least the axles are.

Not the slip yoke or the stubs

Todd

05-21-2008, 11:15 PM

I have found that two “good” tack welds are better then four. If you have four tacks chances are due to the orientation of placement at least two of the tacks will be on the sides of the yoke. Illustrated in red. Placing tack welds here, the heat-effected zone has adverse effects on the shafts performance. They fail right at the tack.

I run two long tacks shown it yellow. Placed in this orientation the heat-effected zone does not effect the shaft as much.

I burn all mine at 90 amps AC, dragging the puddle in a small circle using 1/8” 6013 rod.

http://photos-282.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v283/56/78/6606282/n6606282_31363961_5656.jpg

Dishtowel

05-21-2008, 11:27 PM

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/232000-232999/232950_16_full.jpg

What is that small shock looking thing in the upper left corner?? (and what is he doing?)

Totalled

05-22-2008, 01:04 AM

Torque dampener for the 4.0..

4x4junkie

05-22-2008, 01:07 AM

Stock engine damper (4.0L).

Not fully sure what it's purpose is (probably something to do with the engine moving while under torque).

--too slow lol

compleckz

05-22-2008, 09:16 AM

I bet they got egged from when they were binding on the beam window.

those shafts never saw beam window bind, they were a new set of shafts, press fit caps.. before i installed the 760x's i clearanced the window.. and havent done a thing to it since i put in the set of shafts with tacked caps, yet the tacked caps lasted and the full clips didnt.

i may have just screwed up grinding the clearance for the full clips, maybe i took too much material off or something, who knows..

oh and i also ground the slip yoke female stub for greater operating angle, on both sets (and broke the first one with full clips)...

i dunno, i just break everything, and i have no bind.

rickcdewitt

05-22-2008, 10:09 AM

maybe a truetrac in front and locker in back would be more your style.easier on the front anyway

compleckz

05-22-2008, 10:21 AM

maybe a truetrac in front and locker in back would be more your style.easier on the front anyway

i have been very easy on it, all the trails i used to beat it on, are now easy, and require no bumping, no throttling.. it just crawls with the lockers.. i lost that coil ****ing around 2wd, where i needed some momentum :)

rickcdewitt

05-22-2008, 10:33 AM

yeah i hear ya,i noticed a big difference with just the rear lock-right.debating on wether its worth all the broken front shit though (hmmmn thoughts of a d44 cross my mind especially factoring in the cost of superrunner and other shit needed for the height and reliability i want)

4x4junkie

05-22-2008, 08:19 PM

compleckz

05-22-2008, 10:18 PM

Many say lockers add a lot of stress on the shafts (and is true if you look at it from certain aspects), but the simple fact you can go slow and crawl up stuff with some finesse (rather than just blasting through with momentum, bouncing around all over the place) certainly does allow the shafts to survive many times longer.

I dunno, maybe I'm just lucky then. I've yet to egg out a shaft (other than losing a cap the one time). I've broken some 297s (sheared trunnion and several spit c-clips & caps), and one shaft at the spline.

man, i really don't know why i destroyed that first set of shafts.. but all i DO know is that with the tacked caps, i've run these shafts 3 times as long as the set before.. and if it wasn't for the coil popping out while trying to show off in 2wd--i wouldn't have had ANY problems.

any trail i struggled on before, is a complete breeze now with the lockers and 760xs, i dont even really need to pick a line, i just drive straight over stuff, i even pull other trucks up the stuff i used to struggle on!

rickcdewitt

05-23-2008, 09:12 AM

but the simple fact you can go slow and crawl up stuff with some finesse (rather than just blasting through with momentum, bouncing around all over the place) certainly does allow the shafts to survive many times longer.

while this may be true and i have noticed it with just the rear locked,i think going slow saves your alignment and suspension more than the shafts.you will have a very hard time putting much over 50% torque on an open diffs axleshaft