c4 trans simple questions

[88mudder]

just got a c4 and know nothing about it. I have a few simple quick questions.

Where is the drain and fill bolts located? My trans pan doesnt have a drain bolt.

How much fluid does the c4 take?

Do u gotta fill the torque converter with trans fluid before operation?

Greatly appreciated!

[projectnitemare]

You fill the trans though the dip stick. There is a "pan fill" and a "case fill" C4. There is no drain bolt. You have to remove the pan to drain it. When I had my C4 I installed a drain plug kit in the pan. I want to say I complete fill is around 10 quarts but I forget exactly. Yes it is a good idea to put a quart of fluid in the converter before installing it. Make sure you get the converter seated properly, as in you will feel it engage in the input shaft and the pump. If you don't have it installed correctly you will wipe out the pump as soon as you start it. What year was the transmission made? There are a few variations in the C4 over the years. Pick up a rebuild manual, the will usually cover the C4, C6 and AOD in one book.

Matt

[baddad457]

My C-4 holds 9 quarts with a deep sump pan. I put as much fluid in the converter as it'll hold and not run out when you stand it on end to stab it in the front pump. Not having it plugged correctly in the front pump breaks the pump gear when you bolt the motor and trans together. You don't have to start it to ruin the front pump, just the act of forcing the two together will break the pump.

[1wicked88]

It probaby won't always break the pump gear when bolting it together. I've seen a few bent flex plates but by the time the engine was started the gear an pump was trash. Just take an extra minute when putting the converter in.

Matt

[88mudder]

my trans is still in the truck. When installing the new motor in with the flex plate and converter bolted together to the motor, will this make it hard to line up the shaft on the trans? How do u all do it? I dont wanna remove the trans.

[baddis]

STOP DO NOT INSTALL THE ENGINE WITH THE TORQUE CONVERTER ATTACHED. you will tear up the front pump and the converter.

[v-8power]

It would be better to put the torque converter on the tranny. Put some tranny fluid in it then put it on the input shaft. Then turn it slow while pushing (slighty) you will hear and feel it click in the second time. Then you are good to go.

[baddad457]

STOP DO NOT INSTALL THE ENGINE WITH THE TORQUE CONVERTER ATTACHED. you will tear up the front pump and the converter.

Ditto, you'll break the front pump for sure doing it this way.:badidea:

[88mudder]

how does it work that way? I thought the flex plate was bolted to the motor as well as the converter. How do u bolt the converter and flex plate to the motor when the motor is on the trans?

[budro]

you attach the bolts from the flexplate to converter through the starter hole. You must take the starter off and do it that way

[v-8power]

When your tranny and engine are together you'll understand how to bolt them together.
You will have room to see the bolts easy enough.

[projectnitemare]

Definitely tighten the converter bolts though the starter hole instead of the inspection plate. It will make life much easier. You must put the converter in the transmission first, that's just how it works. It's not as bad as it seems.

Matt

[88mudder]

ok i got it now, thx for clarification everyone.

[88mudder]

having troubles getting the motor in! Played hell with it for 2 days now. I cannot get the motor to mate the trans. I try pushing it but it wont budge. Its frusterating.

[baddad457]

If you have 4 old small block long head bolts, take these and cut the heads off, then chamfer the ends. Screw these into 4 of the bellhousing bolt holes (2 per side, one top and one bottom) in the back of the block. Line these new "studs" into the bellhousing bolt holes and shove the two together. I've done this in 3 engine installations now by my lonesome and it goes smooth as butter.

[88mudder]

thx baddad. Which gasket/flexplate should i use? The combo that came with the motor or the combo that came with my trans? right now im using the combo that came with the trans but maybe i effed up!

[baddad457]

Gasket? Or do you mean the block plate, the thin aluminum or steel plate that fits between the block and bellhousing? You have to use the one that fits the bellhousing. including the starter holes, this is what indexes the starter to the flexplate. The flexplate must also match (there are two sizes most used---157 and 164 tooth)If you were trying to use a 164 tooth flex in a 157 tooth bell, it ain't gonna go together, the converter is too big. The imbalance of the flexplate must also be correct for the motor (28 or 50 oz/in)

[88mudder]

there was a 160 tooth plate in there come to find out and the block plate was not the right one. Ordered all the correct stuff with the correct balance weight. I will let u kno tomorrow how it goes.

[88mudder]

well hell, im in bit of a struggle here. Are 302's not supposed to bolt to c4 transmissions? The bellhousing pattern is way off and will not line up to my 302. What the hell? Am i missing something that i didnt know? My 289 bolts right up to my c4!

[Mutant Pony]

'64 and older 289 used a 5 bolt pattern. As the c-4 was cast in 64 (hence the c4) that bellhousing was only used one year. I had a couple about twenty years ago.
If you could post a picture of the bell housing, We could tell you what is wrong.

[88mudder]

302 block pattern, 6 bolt
http://a279.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/37/l_56bc1089fd3a57addd7eef1f25a07eb6.jpg

289 block pattern 5 bolt (previously had it bolted to c4 trans below)
http://a414.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/43/l_030e4ab233cca33fcfe1e437e9c94d15.jpg

c4 bellhousing (does NOT bolt to the 302 block pattern)
http://a60.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/63/l_3a23fca9210ca891de67886e4268269b.jpg

any bellhousings out there that will fit my 302 block pattern? Any advice is welcome here!

[baddad457]

Your 289 is a 5 bolt block. Ditto for the C4 bell. You just need a later bell to swap out with the 5 bolt. You'll also need a 157 tooth flexplate for the 157 tooth bell, the one you have now should be a 160 tooth flexplate

[88mudder]

Your 289 is a 5 bolt block. Ditto for the C4 bell. You just need a later bell to swap out with the 5 bolt. You'll also need a 157 tooth flexplate for the 157 tooth bell, the one you have now should be a 160 tooth flexplate

yes your correct. That bell in the pic is a 160 tooth. I have a brand new 157 flexplate laying in the garage.

[Captain Ledd]

yeah, as soon as you mentioned that the bolts didn't match up I had a bad feeling... Hope you can find one of those bellhousings...

[88mudder]

will this ultra bell work? I count 6 bolt holes then the 2 extra for the little studs hanging out for 8 total which matches my 302 block pattern. http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_44290_-1

[baddad457]

As long as it'll bolt onto the main case it should.

[88mudder]

thx for the help! Hopefully i can find a used one in the next couple days and i will let u guys know how it goes.

[88mudder]

found a newer bell off a foxbody mustang...157t..6 bolt pattern! Only 20 bucks with a torque converter! Getting it Friday and i will keep u all updated this weekend!

[88mudder]

got a 6 bolt bell off a foxbody mustang. Retained my 2500 stahl converter (not the foxbody converter...this might be my problem..) Bolted right up. New 157t flexplate. I go to put the motor in a i get all the bellhousing bolts started. After that, i go to try to line up the 4 torque converter studs and the flexplate isnt in far enough. The studs line up perfect but just wont poke through the hole. Seems like the torque converter studs are too short. What is the problem here? Should i try to pull back on the TC? My 2500 stahl converter isnt as fat as my foxbody stock converter so im assuming this is probly the problem.

[baddis]

is the bell housing tight against the block?

[red85]

You may have a C5 bell. Use the tc that you got with the bell and you shouldn't have any issues.I ran into a similar problem awhile back. The C5 bell is 5/8" deeper than the C4 so with the wrong tc, the front pump can't be engaged!

[baddad457]

got a 6 bolt bell off a foxbody mustang. Retained my 2500 stahl converter (not the foxbody converter...this might be my problem..) Bolted right up. New 157t flexplate. I go to put the motor in a i get all the bellhousing bolts started. After that, i go to try to line up the 4 torque converter studs and the flexplate isnt in far enough. The studs line up perfect but just wont poke through the hole. Seems like the torque converter studs are too short. What is the problem here? Should i try to pull back on the TC? My 2500 stahl converter isnt as fat as my foxbody stock converter so im assuming this is probly the problem.

Are the studs about even with the face of the flexplate, or farther back ? If they're even, just take a screw driver and pull the converter forward enough to start one nut., Once you get that one on, the rest will be pulled thru the holes. If it's deeper, then like red85 said, you might have gotten a hold of a C-5 bell, it's deeper and uses a 164 tooth flexplate.

[88mudder]

Are the studs about even with the face of the flexplate, or farther back ? If they're even, just take a screw driver and pull the converter forward enough to start one nut., Once you get that one on, the rest will be pulled thru the holes. If it's deeper, then like red85 said, you might have gotten a hold of a C-5 bell, it's deeper and uses a 164 tooth flexplate.

the studs are like right on the face..i would say 1/4" at most from touching the flexplate hole. I will try the screwdriver thing. I tried fitting a 164 tooth flexplate in the bell and it wont even spin without rubbing the walls. If pulling the TC forward doesnt work then i think i will put on the other TC. It's fatter and it will position the flexplate toward the motor more and allow the studs to go through.

[88mudder]

is the bell housing tight against the block?

yes its fully contacted flat.

[88mudder]

i cant even move the TC forward. Im gonna put the TC on that came with the bell and get a new flexplate with 11.5" bolt circle.

[red85]

It really does sound to me like you got some sort of C5 bell. If the tc studs are 1/4" from the flexplate then by the time you make up the space to have the tc bolted up, you'll be close to 5/8". That just makes me think the bell is likely a C5 since it's roughly 5/8s deeper. Have you had the driveshaft in yet? That was where I figured out for sure that I had the wrong bell on my C4. The darn thing fit in there so tight that I knew something was up with overall length. Keep at it and keep telling us what's going on. We won't steer you wrong. Honest! ...That is unless you want to get into another stupid EFI vs carb argument LOL!:icon_cheers:

[88mudder]

the guy i bought the bell from was positive it came off a 5.0 fox body mustang. I dont have the matching TC on it thats why was saying if i used the matching TC it might work because the 2 TC's are different thicknesses. ( sorry run-on sentance) just gotta get the right flex plate now..seems hard to find

[baddad457]

Fox Stangs never came with C-4's, so if what he told you is true, then you got a C-5 bell. I was thinking these were 164 tooth only, but I could be wrong there.

[88mudder]

Fox Stangs never came with C-4's, so if what he told you is true, then you got a C-5 bell. I was thinking these were 164 tooth only, but I could be wrong there.

what do u think is my best option? I really dont kno what to buy anymore. I know with the mustang TC it will make the flexplate stick closer to the engine and the TC studs will be able to poke through the flexplate holes. Thats about all i can think of. Does this sound reasonable?

[88mudder]

i need a 157t flexplate with a 11.5 bolt circle and weighted! Ive looked all over Ebay and summit Racing and i cannot find this! If anyone could tell me where these are hiding i would thank u so much!

[baddad457]

The converter studs need to at least poke thru far enough to get a full nut and a tad more. Just as long as they're not sticking thru more than the thickness of the counterweight.

[red85]

What about getting a C5 tc from a tranny shop? Either that or get a 164 tooth tc and bell. I run a 164 tooth setup in my truck and I have no clearance issues. You should be able to find that stuff a little easier. Look for an older Crown Vic or Grand Marquis that came with a C4.

[88mudder]

just noticed my trans does not have a kickdown cable. Its a manual valve body, does it still need the cable? If so where is a good cable kit to buy? My carb is a 4bbl Edelbrock.

[projectnitemare]

No cable, it will be controlled with a vaccum modulator

Matt

[88mudder]

No cable, it will be controlled with a vaccum modulator

Matt

thx.

my radiator is about 2-3 inches from the fan , just wondering about flexible rad hoses cuz i kno im gonna need something that can make a few sharp curves.

[Totalled]

A C5 converter won't work with an early C4 trans... the input shaft is smaller.

[88mudder]

just noticed what i think is the vac modulater on my trans. It is a gold color and alitle smaller than an egg and located on the back of the trans. It has a metal line coming off it bent up towards the motor. This must be a vac hose..it never was hooked up to anything. Could this be why the truck would stall when i put in into gear? Is it correct to hook the line up to my intake manifold on the open vac port?

[red85]

Yes, that's the vacuum modulator. Just hook it to a vacuum source and the tranny will shift more predictably instead of going 1-2-3 in about 2 seconds. As for the the motor dying when you drop it into gear check the vac advance on your distributor and take a look at where you curb idle is set on your carb.

[88mudder]

Yes, that's the vacuum modulator. Just hook it to a vacuum source and the tranny will shift more predictably instead of going 1-2-3 in about 2 seconds. As for the the motor dying when you drop it into gear check the vac advance on your distributor and take a look at where you curb idle is set on your carb.

thx for the info. Should have the truck running this weekend and i will give updates on any problems. Pics of course.

[JCWGrover]

It would appear that you have a 5 bolt C4 made in 64, and if the engine is truly a 289, it is somewhat rare also, as the majority of the 64 5 bolt blocks were 260's. Engine and tranny are worth much more to a Vintage Mustang restorer than to put in an off-roader, as they were only used in the 64 1/2 mustang. Also, a C4 of that vintage is a dual-range transmission, 1 position for normal driving, and 1 position for ice and snow. Ford went to the P-R-N-D-2-1 shifter pattern in 1967, and ditched the dual-range. You could probably make a bit of money by re-selling it on a vintage mustang site, or auction site

[88mudder]

need some help on choosing a radiator. I need a small radiator that has the upper intake hose opening on the left side and the lower on the right. Currently my explorer 4 core is good but its way too tall. My griffen rad is a nice size but has the hose openings on opposite sides than what i need. Anybody reccommend anything?

[red85]

A first gen Explorer (91-94) is usually the best candidate. Are you sure about the position of those outlets? It sounds backwards to me.

Phil

[88mudder]

mustang radiator fits in there good.

everything is hooked up now. Not sure exactly if i hooked up the spark plug wires right. My dist cap has a number 1 on it, does that mean that wire goes to number 1 cylinder with the rotor pointing to it and so on..?

[red85]

Generally, the 1 is for #1 cylinder. Did you set up your mechanical timing and set #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke before you dropped in the distributor? If you didn't, take the distributor out, mark the base of the dist with a marker and poit the rotor at it. Once you've done that, it gets easier to set it up. I've seen guys just move the wires one position fwd or back when they've forgotten to do the procedure I mentioned above, but I'm a stickler for using factory marks as described in good repair manuals. Call me fussy, but I like it when things line up and work the way they're supposed to.

[88mudder]

i did set the TDC on cylinder 1 upon compression stroke. What do u mean mechanical timing?

[88mudder]

nvm that for now i will figure the timing out.

need some headers. Have a 3" body lift installed. What headers clear the steering shaft and frame without modification? Mustang shortys require too much modifications, already tried.

[red85]

i did set the TDC on cylinder 1 upon compression stroke. What do u mean mechanical timing?

Mechanical timing is what controls the valve opening in relation to where the piston is in the bore. If you changed the cam, you would have had to come in contact with this. If you haven't played with the cam, then don't worry about that. Have you test fired your motor yet?

Phil

[projectnitemare]

You can find rubber flex hoses at most autoparts stores. I used stainless flex hoses, be careful with those. they like to blow off in your face as you check your timing or make a carb adjustment. I spent a night in the hospital over those things.

Matt

[88mudder]

Mechanical timing is what controls the valve opening in relation to where the piston is in the bore. If you changed the cam, you would have had to come in contact with this. If you haven't played with the cam, then don't worry about that. Have you test fired your motor yet?

Phil

cam was already in the motor when i bought it. Tried test firing the motor but it didnt even pop or anything. I gotta play with the timing.

[88mudder]

You can find rubber flex hoses at most autoparts stores. I used stainless flex hoses, be careful with those. they like to blow off in your face as you check your timing or make a carb adjustment. I spent a night in the hospital over those things.

Matt

got the flex hoses a few days ago and they worked out fine.

[88mudder]

http://a444.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/36/l_d8d3fd8452e40d08a92e83206b80adab.jpg

http://a702.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/29/l_c06bace8492fb9d6bb7930444bf4a62d.jpg

http://a511.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/76/l_81ffd89a3459e9ae5a8c0734bf2e3cfe.jpg

http://a932.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/23/l_d2bb72dd5649ad3fb29e2120eb60f293.jpg

see the number 1 on the cap, does that mean that wire goes to number 1 cylinder? I know the cap is counterclockwise rotation, so im assuming the next number is a 3?

[red85]

What is the motor out of? If it's out of a pre 82 vehicle you could have the older firing order. If its an HO motor it's 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8. Y'know you can upgrade that old style cap with a Dura Spark lower housing and a new style cap with terminals instead of sockets.
Yup that wire goes to #1 and the next one goes to #3 cylinder and so on if you have the HO/351 firing order. Hedman 88400's will likely do the trick. I'm running Hedman 89500's in my 2wd setup but the passenger side header runs smack into the suspension I beam (many other people who run these headers have run into this problem but Hedman refuses to do anything about it). Early Mustang tri-y's will work very well too. If you can find 289 log manifolds they'll work too, but they are pretty restrictive.
Phil

[88mudder]

i wanna be able to fit some longtubes in there because i hear they give more power than shorties. Is this true?

how did u modify your headers to clear the I-beam red85? I like the price on those, cheapest on summitracing.com for 302 ranger swaps. Duff headers are priced good i think , $239 for black ones. May go with those.

[red85]

I made a special collector with some exhaust adapters I bought at Canadian Tire. I started with a 90* bend and heated the s#!t out of it and bent it six ways from Sunday LOL. The real solution is to slice asmall section out of the collector and reweld it so it no longer smacks the I beam. Then, if you're like me, you'll want to heat the section of the collector that runs at the back of the starter and flatten it out enough to clear even the largest starter (mine is for a Bronco with a 351W). It would not hurt to make a starter heat shield out of some sheet metal and get a roll of header wrap too. I literally toasted a couple of starters before I realized that heat soak was destroying my starters. $239 is not bad for a set of headers, but if you buy the Hedmans be prepared to do a little modification.

[88mudder]

I made a special collector with some exhaust adapters I bought at Canadian Tire. I started with a 90* bend and heated the s#!t out of it and bent it six ways from Sunday LOL. The real solution is to slice asmall section out of the collector and reweld it so it no longer smacks the I beam. Then, if you're like me, you'll want to heat the section of the collector that runs at the back of the starter and flatten it out enough to clear even the largest starter (mine is for a Bronco with a 351W). It would not hurt to make a starter heat shield out of some sheet metal and get a roll of header wrap too. I literally toasted a couple of starters before I realized that heat soak was destroying my starters. $239 is not bad for a set of headers, but if you buy the Hedmans be prepared to do a little modification.

my motor sits a good 1-2" higher than with mustang mounts so maybe i could clear those hedmans alright

[red85]

Have you checked out Patriot headers? They are very high quality. Nice finish and good solid welds.

[88mudder]

Have you checked out Patriot headers? They are very high quality. Nice finish and good solid welds.

do they offer a v8 swap header?

[v-8power]

You can contact Total Performance out of Michigan, they have good swap headers for the 302 or 351W. The ones for the 302 are like a tri-y header and the 351W are a longer tube with 3" outlet. I personally have used both and are pleased with them.

[88mudder]

found some nice longtube headers for a 1990 fullsize bronco 5.0 Does anyone kno if these will fit? they look like they might be too big..idk tho

[88mudder]

just wanted to pass this info along to everyone. 94-95 mustang shorty headers fit really well. Dont go with foxbody mustang headers unless u wanna modify them on the drivers side.

[88mudder]

passenger header is close the the framrail so i dont kno if the exhaust shop can make exhaust for it. Looks like the frame needs to be notched alittle. Anybody run into this problem with shorties?