welding my frame

[c_lower]

i have a rotted out spot of my frame. if i weld reinforcements on that part of the frame is it going to cause my frame to warp slightly from the heat? because ive heard it will warp my frame due to heat stress and what not. but then i heard that the 4x4 frame is strong enough to handle it.

your inputs please?

[The Jester Race]

You should be fine, just don't do a full bead from the top to bottom of the frame. But if you are truly worried about it warping, you can brace the frame and then weld 2 inches at a time, let cool, then move to the opposite corner and weld another 2 inches.

-Jester

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

Where exactly does it need to be patched?

[c_lower]

it needs to be patched towards the back of the frame. by the spare tire. that area. because im puttin a body lift on my truck soon and i was just gunna get someone to weld the frame up while doing that since ill have the bed off. and im going to wirebrush all the shit off of it then primer and paint it jus to prevent rust somewhat

[AKBroncoII]

Is it cracked or rusted through? No welds vertical on the frame rail. Make your patch look like this <> or this ()

[c_lower]

alright. well its behind all the shock mounts so i dont think it would affect the driving or alignment if it was to warp. but im cutting the back foot or so off my frame and then going to weld a new part on. its going to be cut in the shape of a L sort of. so the new piece will fit in it like a puzzle then just weld it in.

a backwards L and an upside down L. so they fit together

[RobinHood]

Is it cracked or rusted through? No welds vertical on the frame rail. Make your patch look like this <> or this ()

This is interesting... l have never heard that before. l am not questioning you or your statement by any means... but would like to know the reason behind this for future reference.

[Will]

On Ford's comercial website they have info on modifying frames and have the diamond patches shown. But on this truck, if the weld is after the rear hanger it's not that important.

[metalmacguyver]

The rear shock mount is in front of the rear hanger so it will be in a place that matters.

[powerwagon]

i may be a newb to trs but i can tell u the patch plates have to be rounded of cornes like dimonds (fishplate) and i f square it should have now sharp corners. sharp corners make streas points and thats weak and bad. my dads bin doing this stuf for 22 years tig stick mig wut ever he knows his shit

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

Yup, never bring a weld to a point on a frame or a do a straight vertical weld, it will create a stress point. Do as AK said and fishplate it.

[Loanranger]

Technically, you're not supposed to weld to, or section Ford frames. If your repair were to fail, and cause an accident, you will be at fault.

With that said, take these guys' advise, weld in your patch, then fishplate over it. :icon_thumby:

[Dan Fredrickson]

Boxing the inside of the frame would help in spreading the load from the weak area....

[Will]

Technically, you're not supposed to weld to, or section Ford frames. If your repair were to fail, and cause an accident, you will be at fault.

With that said, take these guys' advise, weld in your patch, then fishplate over it. :icon_thumby:

You can weld the frames. Read down to where it says FRAMES (https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckBBAS/non-html/2009/bb_pdf/397.pdf). It's a PDF file.

Here is the whole book (https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckBBAS/topics/2009/maintoc.html). Worth reading. There is another publication that gives pictures that I have saved on a harddrive somewhere but you should be able to find it on-line as I did.

[Loanranger]

You can weld the frames. Read down to where it says FRAMES (https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckBBAS/non-html/2009/bb_pdf/397.pdf). It's a PDF file.

Here is the whole book (https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckBBAS/topics/2009/maintoc.html). Worth reading. There is another publication that gives pictures that I have saved on a harddrive somewhere but you should be able to find it on-line as I did.


Great info there Will. :icon_thumby:

This would be the part I was talking about, #4 " 4. Do not weld on frame flanges, including the bend radii." This is what makes it impossible to section or repair a ford c-channel frame. Not to mention the info you submitted is from the fleet class of trucks, not passenger vehicles.

Here is a small list of the frames ford will allow sections on. Notice they are all hydroformed boxed frames. Not C-channel frames.
http://www.i-car.com/html_pages/technical_information/advantage/advantage_online_archives/2004/102504a.shtml

A little more valuable info, which states the same thing as your info Will, you cannot weld on the upper or lower flanges, including the radii.
Crack repair is generally a business decision as most vehicle makers provide limited information regarding this type of repair. Ford, however, provides the following information regarding repair of frame rail cracks:

Ford's Recommendations:

Ford recommends that cracks resulting from repairs can be welded and then should be reinforced by installing a piece of the same material and thickness that extends 100–150 mm (4–6") beyond either side of the crack and is welded completely around its perimeter. There are four restrictions regarding the repair of Ford frame cracks:

Cracks cannot be repaired within the crush initiator area.
Cracks caused by repairing a kink cannot be repaired.
Cracks located in the area of the steering gear cannot be repaired.
Cracks located on the flange area of a C-channel frame should not be repaired.
Generally, frame cracks that should not be repaired include those:

near the steering box area.
near a suspension mounting area.
on the top or bottom flange on a frame with an open C-channel design.
caused by straightening an area that was previously kinked.



Basically, my comment of "you cannot weld on ford frames" was a general comment, which does apply to the OP's question, but isn't neccesarily the bottom line. :icon_thumby:

Like I said before, anything you do to your frame makes you liable for the outcome, good or bad, unless you follow fords reccomendations to a T. And there are no procedures outlined by ford for the repair you want to do, therefore it is not a viable repair, and should not be performed, unless you know the liability you are taking upon yourself, and the next stop for your truck is a crusher. If you sell this truck after making the repair and it fails, injuring someone, you are automatically at fault. Just something to think about.

While it may be more work, the only right thing to do is to change out the frame with one that is in better condition.


With that said. :icon_welder::D

[Toms01PSD]

I had the same problem on my 99. The rear section (from the rear leaf spring shackle back) my frame was pretty much gone. I cut that section of frame out and went and bought a section from the JY. I didn't weld it personally, but one of my buddys did. Also, he vertically welded it on the inner and outer sides of the frame, then we used some steel plates side to side to give it more strength. My camera won't connect to my computer right now but i'll post some pics when I get it to work right. I'm sure it wasn't the "proper" thing to do, but it's pretty tough.

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

The best thing to do in that case would be to cut both pieces of frame on a 45 and weld them up on the diagonal.

[Toms01PSD]

The best thing to do in that case would be to cut both pieces of frame on a 45 and weld them up on the diagonal.

I wish it would have been that easy. Small sections were literally rusted off. We had to make a clean cut straight down. From the info I have on the truck it was pretty much used near the coast or right on it because even my brake lines were rusted through. There was a nail in my master cylinder line running to the rear.

[AllanD]

The BEST frame "splice" to weld in a patch section is a "double reverse fishmouth"

Essentially what this is is you section the frame in such a way that the piece being discarded has a "mouth" cut out of it as does the section of frame from the "donor" that you are not using so that the two pieces you ARE using each have a half fishplate "tab"
and they overlap when assembled like a "handshake"

then you "plate over" the flange top and bottom with a piece of steel that is atleast 24" long that is NEVER welded across the flange, but can be welded parallel to the edge of the flange and parallel to the radius.

Ford Acts like their frames are "rocket science" when infact they are plain
low-carbon mild steel hot rolled sheet stock that is hydroformed to shape.

The welds I did on my frame to install my 1"x2" rectangular spacer tubes
for my 1" body lift are welded to the combination cab/bed mount at the
front (full perimeter), parallel to the frame on each of the mid supports
(all eight of them. Yes, I have support blocks under ALL the cross bed box supports) and at the rear of the frame (three sides, parallel to the frame and across the back)

I really cannot believe that any welding I did weaken the frame,
infact I believe I've reinforced it because at each spot I welded
in a block I was essentially gusseting a spot wher the factory left
a 3/4" diameter HOLE in the flange.

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[Loanranger]

Strengthening a frame is not always a good thing. There are crush zones built into frames to allow them to crush and absorb the impact instead of your body absorbing the impact. You go plating over crush zones and you're not only putting yourself but others at risk. What happens if you reinforce your frame and instead of it crushing in an accident, it stays rigid and pierces things it's not supposed to (like people)?

Not trying to be harsh here, but there is alot more to the frame of your truck then you will ever know, and altering it in any way will result in changes in how it reacts in an accident.

:icon_cheers:

[JohnnyU]

Not trying to be harsh here, but there is alot more to the frame of your truck then you will ever know, and altering it in any way will result in changes in how it reacts in an accident.

Have you ever modified suspension on any vehicle? The same can be said for factory suspension and people hack that off all the time.

[AllanD]

Strengthening a frame is not always a good thing. There are crush zones built into frames to allow them to crush and absorb the impact instead of your body absorbing the impact. You go plating over crush zones and you're not only putting yourself but others at risk. What happens if you reinforce your frame and instead of it crushing in an accident, it stays rigid and pierces things it's not supposed to (like people)?

Not trying to be harsh here, but there is alot more to the frame of your truck then you will ever know, and altering it in any way will result in changes in how it reacts in an accident.

:icon_cheers:


I'm working on gen1/gen2 frames which have no "crush initiation zones"

In the event of a rear end impact however the ranger frame is designed to bend down at two distinct points.

The frame bending down where THEY wanted it to would result
in compromising one or both fuel tanks I have back there, so I
couldn't really give a rat's ass what some engineer intended 20+years ago,
I am more concerned about what THIS engineer intends NOW.
especially since THIS engineer will be in the vehicle in the event
of any such collision...

You should see the metal we added to my brother's F250 supercab...

we reinforced the entire frame from just behind the cab to the
rear bumper mounts if the frame is going to fail it will fail UPWARDS by a tension failure of the top flange at the gap between the bed and the cab
because to fail any other way would require the failure (in tension)
of a 3"wide piece of 3/8" thick flatbar that is strapped along the bottom flange of the frame.

That truck will NEVER sag in the middle.

The rear springs are such that 3400# of coal compresses
the rear suspension by a whopping 2.5":)



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[Loanranger]

Have you ever modified suspension on any vehicle? The same can be said for factory suspension and people hack that off all the time.

No. Never. :rolleyes:
Just because people do it, doesn't make it right. My intent was to inform the OP of the liability he is taking upon himself. Simple as that.

I'm working on gen1/gen2 frames which have no "crush initiation zones"

In the event of a rear end impact however the ranger frame is designed to bend down at two distinct points.

The frame bending down where THEY wanted it to would result
in compromising one or both fuel tanks I have back there, so I
couldn't really give a rat's ass what some engineer intended 20+years ago,
I am more concerned about what THIS engineer intends NOW.
especially since THIS engineer will be in the vehicle in the event
of any such collision...

You should see the metal we added to my brother's F250 supercab...

we reinforced the entire frame from just behind the cab to the
rear bumper mounts if the frame is going to fail it will fail UPWARDS by a tension failure of the top flange at the gap between the bed and the cab
because to fail any other way would require the failure (in tension)
of a 3"wide piece of 3/8" thick flatbar that is strapped along the bottom flange of the frame.

That truck will NEVER sag in the middle.

The rear springs are such that 3400# of coal compresses
the rear suspension by a whopping 2.5":)



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See, with a post like yours, I'm not at fear for my life that I may pass your truck on the road someday. :icon_thumby:

But when the whole idea of a frame not being load bearing past the rear shock is introduced in a thread, I start to worry.

The funny part about all this, I just tore down an 01 Ranger today that totaled cause it needed a frame. It really wasn't a bad hit, knocked the right rail over about 40mm and the left rail over about 10mm. Technically, it could have been repaired. But because ford doesn't allow straightening of bends or kinks in convoluted sections, it had to be replaced, which brought it over the threshold.

Bottom line is, information never hurt anybody, but lack of information could. :icon_thumby:

[AllanD]

Frankly what scares the crap out of me is relatively well constructed trucks
with reinforced frames and beefed suspensions running on tires NEVER designed or intended to carry the load...



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