Carb? EFI? What to choose.

[Iron Ranger]

I am in process of installing a 5.0 from an 89 F-150 into my 92 Ranger. My brother wants to go carb due to the simplicity of it, I want to use EFI(thats what my Ranger is now and thats how I want it to stay), plus the 5.0 has EFI w/ the computer any way. So, what do you guys think about the system onhttp://www.massfloefi.com or that electronic carb that was featured on Horsepower TV? He wants electronic carb, i want the system on the website. Input would be appreciated.

[sublime68charger]

if possible I would use the EFI that is on teh 5.0 motor now.

just my $.02 on the matter,

my be harder to setup and get going but easier to run in the long run.

[Ranger5.0]

**** carbs, they have no place on the road these days, they went out with bellbottoms. EFI isnt that overwhelming, just get a shop manual for the truck the engine came from, then get a manual for your truck. Take some time to read over the wireing schematics, dont rush the swap, and you will be fine, and happy with the dependable starting, better fuel milage and dependability.

[Ranger44]

+3 on EFI. Better in so many ways. Just do EFI if ya already got it.

[baddad457]

**** carbs, they have no place on the road these days, they went out with bellbottoms. EFI isnt that overwhelming, just get a shop manual for the truck the engine came from, then get a manual for your truck. Take some time to read over the wireing schematics, dont rush the swap, and you will be fine, and happy with the dependable starting, better fuel milage and dependability.

:buttkick:I bet if you'd drive mine, you'd retract that "**** carbs" statement. If I hadn't told you it had a carb, you'd never guess it from driving it.:c-n:

[Ranger5.0]

lol, baddad, whne i go out at 4am in the middle of january, and its -35 out, i have yet to see a carped engine that barked to life, and idled. I used to work with carbs. From a 289 with a lumpy cam that would hardly idle, to a nice smooth runing 351 in a bronco, I will never put a carb on anything unless there realy is no other option.

[projectnitemare]

To each their own, I also run a carb and if you didn't open the hood you wouldn't know it. I would much rather have done it fuel injected but didn't have the cash to buy new injectors, intakes and so on. If you are going to build the crap out of the engine it will be cheaper to use a carb due to the fact you will reach the limits of the stock injection pretty quickly. If it's going to stay pretty much stock go with the fuel injection,

Matt

[85_Ranger4x4]

lol, baddad, whne i go out at 4am in the middle of january, and its -35 out, i have yet to see a carped engine that barked to life, and idled. I used to work with carbs. From a 289 with a lumpy cam that would hardly idle, to a nice smooth runing 351 in a bronco, I will never put a carb on anything unless there realy is no other option.

We try keep fish out of our engines, that kinda helps. :taunt:

We have had pretty good luck with our carbed engines, my 2.8 is kind of tempermental but I need to make it adjustable after I ditched the feedback stuff. The 400 in my dads one ton starts quicker and runs just as smooth as my 5.4, I tested it once with both sitting out in the middle of a snowstorm.

We even used a carbed tractor to push snow and feed hay, it does have a manual choke but the little bugger doesn't miss a beat.

Edit: If the EFI setup is complete I would try to run it, if not I would probably go with the carb personally. Your truck came with EFI so you already have the fuel system in place for it.

[Ranger5.0]

fish eh, ya, i dont think carp is a good alternative fuel sorce.

[baddad457]

I've driven em when the temps were 20 degrees, all it takes is a few minutes to baby it till it will idle, and that's with NO choke. At -35, you're still going to have to let the engine warm up before driving anyway unless you like changing bearings more often than's needed. The one situation where EFI does shine over a carb is when it involves drastic elevation changes.

[macdaddy31516]

the carb on my ride is as snappy as any efi, hands down:3gears::. do what makes you happy, if you dont ,then you will wonder what if.

[Bent Bolt]

lol, baddad, whne i go out at 4am in the middle of january, and its -35 out, i have yet to see a carped engine that barked to life, and idled. I used to work with carbs. From a 289 with a lumpy cam that would hardly idle, to a nice smooth runing 351 in a bronco, I will never put a carb on anything unless there realy is no other option.

Thats what block heaters are for !!:icon_twisted:

[rusty ol ranger]

Go with a Carb.

One guy that used to be here tried using a EFI 302 on a 87 Ranger.....after going from a EFI 2.9L, last i knew 2 years later it was still sidelined due to electrical issues.

Its alot eaiser hooking up a throttle linkage, kickdown rod, and fuel line then the oodles and oodles of colorful speghettie that you have to hook up with EFI. For a very small benifit in the end.

Carburators run just as good as EFI as long as the Carb is in good shape. Alos, very rarely will a carb ever "Fail" to the point where it wont run at all.

The 400M in my dually with a Edelbrock 4bbl, starts and runs just as smooth and as quick as anything i have thats EFI. The old 351W in my LTD II always started no matter how cold it was.

My buddy has a Plow truck that only sees use in the winter.....its never not started, even in sub zero temps.

The only reason people some people make comments like "**** carbs" is because either 1-They had the money to have some pro set up his\her EFI....or 2- They bought the truck with the EFI shit already hooked up.....or 3 (and probely the biggest reason) there running under the impression newer is always better.....when in reality, its usually the other way around.

Newer is not better, just shiner.

later,
Dustin

[baddad457]

The only reason people some people make comments like "**** carbs" is because either 1-They had the money to have some pro set up his\her EFI....or 2- They bought the truck with the EFI shit already hooked up.....or 3 (and probely the biggest reason) there running under the impression newer is always better.....when in reality, its usually the other way around.

later,
Dustin

:pray:Or, 4. they aren't old enough to know what a carb is, does, how it works or how to tune one.:icon_confused: And then when they think it's out of tune, they mistakenly think the carb is the problem, when in reallity it's an ignition problem.:icon_rofl:

[Ranger5.0]

I do all my own work, some times i slip up and ask stupid questions on hear, but thats life. If you dont understand the wireing in your truck, and need to fal back in old technology, maybe its not that fact that im too young to understand carbs, maybe some people are too old to learn new technology lol. I have had a lot of fun with Carbs, when i was 18 i coble fuked a early 80's Bronco to wheel with, it had a carb. I helped a friend with a 289 powered mustang, again, with a carb. My last DD had a carb. This truck was the first to have efi, i didnt understand it, so i learned it. Now im in the middle of swap # 2, so if somone does WANNA see how whats all in that spegettie of wires, i got a lotta pics.

[Ranger5.0]

and one lesson in life, never you asume you know the 3-4 general reasons why people do somthing. Because as smart as anyone is, there is always someone smarter.

[SRL]

If you have an intact EFI system that you know worked, it's not that hard to get it in. All it really needs is power for the ECM, fuel pump, and o2 sensors. On top of that is ignition and dash gauge wiring which you'll have to do regardless of whether you've got a carb or EFI. The only complications come from luxury items like cruise control and A/C. If your ranger doesn't have those (like mine) you don't even have to worry about that.

But like I said, make sure you have a complete system that works. Finding components in a yard will make your life a bazillion times harder and you may as well go for a carb in that case.

[baddad457]

There is no "gauge" nor "dash" wiring to do on a swap. The gauge wiring harness is completely separate from the EFI stuff, or at least it was on my 89. The only wiring I had to do was for the fuel pump to run a carb. Only dash wiring I did do was to adjust the factory tach to read with the V8 and a circuit to run my electric fans.

[SRL]

Maybe the GenII trucks are different. I know on my 86 I had to wire the gauges up to the senders on my 5.0 for water temp and oil pressure

[88mudder]

i like carbs. Simple. They look nicer under the hood too.

[Davis]

EFI!

it's not that complex.
and megasquirt II is looking really good for tuning.

[mudranger]

carbs...simple, no sensors, codes, extra wiring, useless emissions crap. less stuff to go wrong= better everyday reliability.....all the tech stuff controlled by all the input sensors to a cpu is really great ...until it doesn't work...then its just like every other sophisticated system when it breaks- its a paperweight. for the trail, gimme simple- I can almost always fix it right there well enough to limp home....

[88mudder]

im sick of the ECM! If you can wire then go for it but a carb is way more simple for first timers.

[Ranger5.0]

carbs are more reliable then EFI? Only to thouse who dont understand it. I understand both, and there is a reason why companys were moving over to efi in the 60's

[85_Ranger4x4]

carbs are more reliable then EFI? Only to those who dont understand it. I understand both, and there is a reason why companys were moving over to efi in the 60's

Like who? I always thought the big shift was more in the 80's with increasing emissions. GM had a distant relative of fuel injection in the 50's, it is worth alot of money now because nobody cared for it then making it a rare option.

[BigBlockRanger]

EFI > carb

Mechanical fuel injection has been around a loooooooonnnngggg time.

I'll never build another carb'd vehicle. Not with inexpensive EFI stuff like Megasquirt out there. Carbs are definately NOT more reliable than EFI. That's the equivalent of saying a set of points are more reliable than a duraspark ignition. (I'll leave the TFI out of that, LOL) They are reliable to the point that people pay no attention to them. Then when it finally starts causing trouble from lack of basic maintenance, people cuss about 'all them electronics' and want to slap a carb on there.

I can tune a carb, but I find it much easier to plug in the laptop, adjust a few settings, save them and go on about my business without having to pop the hood.

[85_Ranger4x4]

And everybody has a laptop with the programs to plug into their truck...

And when our Duraspark module was overheating in our one ton coming back from a tractor pull in July a set of points was looking mighty inviting.

[Ranger5.0]

HA...See, hears the funny thing. Whne somthing new comes out, thouse who dont undrstand it tend to revert back to old technology, where they are more comfy. Im pritty damn sure everyone has some type of computer these days. Tuning a EEC IV system doesnt requier YOU to have a lap top accessable to "dial in" somthing. Its not like a carb boys, it doesnt need attention. Plug it in, power it up, and play on. When somthing goes wrong, replace the part, dont turn your brain off and start to drool and say you would rather use old school stuff. EFI is NOT hard to work with. Saying that EFI isnt as good as a carb....well, its like this way back when hydraulics were introduced, no one trusted then, and be damned if they were going to use hydraulics on THERE equipment....it was new, different and everyone trusted cables...including cable operated service breaks. NOW where are we? if somone was to tell you to use cable's levers and pully to activate the service breaks on YOUR TRUCK, you would say they are insain and there are better ways. Even tho billy bob can fix them olf breaks with a hammer. The technology is changing, and EFI isnt new any more, the tools are also changing. Accept it, learn how to work with it. But dont claim carbs are juss "better" only because one doesnt understand fuel injection. and EFI was being worked on way befor the 80's, and the principal of fuel injection is even OLDER then that.

[85_Ranger4x4]

Unless you are really good at guessing throwing parts at an EFI system you will not get anywhere without a code reader or scanner of some sort, the more money you spend the more it will tell you. 2/3's of the vehicles that have entered my stable have been fuel injected, I am by no means scared of them. But the 1/3 that are carbed have really given me little reason to ruthlessly bash carbs either.

[Ranger5.0]

no ruthless bashing, carbs have there place, and you dont need a code reader to diagnose EFI problems

[Mutant Pony]

You don't ALWAYS need a code reader to diagnose EFI problems but, sometimes you need even more sophisticated equipment. You never need any expensive equipment to solve a carb problem. Carbs also give you a lot more H.P. per dollar.
If I were building a street truck, I would use a carb.
Carburetors just plain don't belong on 4x4s. At least not on one of mine.
Efi systems do NOT provide better performance or fuel mileage. The only real benefit is driveability.

[BigBlockRanger]

Prior to yanking the 5.0L out of my Ranger in preparation for the big motor, my ranger had been sitting in the same place, unstarted for 4 months. Went out, put the battery back in, hit the key and it started on the first try. Try that with a carb! LOL

For me, a guy building a drag truck, EFI just makes it that much easier to tune the motor and make it run like I want it to. I can datalog my info, see where it needs improvement and make the necessary changes relatively easy and quickly.

[85_Ranger4x4]

Our 1967 International 1100 light half ton pickup with a 304 sat for 4 years without being started. Dumped a little gas in the carb, it turned over about three times before roaring to life without a fight. Couldn't ask for better, we were expecting a tooth and nail fight to get it going.

I have never had an issue with carbs on my offroader, but I don't too much of the off camber stuff that gives them fits either.

[Mutant Pony]

I had a lot of problems with the carb on the Mutant pony. When I made the sheetmetal intake that is on it now, I tilted the carb forward a little extra. That solved the hill climbing problem but, I still had issues with rough surfaces at speed.
My offroad Ranger has none of those problems as it is Efi. Both are extremly dependable and have sat for many months at a time without issue.
My mud truck is carburated and sits from aug to june every year. It fires right up and runs fine every summer. I would rather have Efi on the mud truck but, simply cannot afford an Efi system that will work on a 351c in a mud truck.

[Iron Ranger]

I had the block checked out by a local rebuild/machine shop and, to my luck, she had been bored out 040 already. Only $60 to boil and magnaflux the block and check the crankshaft. Now I need aluminum heads for this beast. EFI all the way baby!!!

[red85]

The only issue I can see is the height of the upper plenum on the truck EFI setup.
http://www.photobucket.com/albums/y211/red85/fromthetop.jpg
There's an early image from my swap. I was still using truck mounts at this point and the upper plenum would contact the hood. I ended up running a carb, but I'm still looking to run a GM TBI setup on my motor. That must be pretty similar to the electronic carb you were talking about.

[85_Ranger4x4]

I ended up running a carb, but I'm still looking to run a GM TBI setup on my motor. That must be pretty similar to the electronic carb you were talking about.

I always wondered how well that would work on a Ford engine. You would get the best of both worlds, the nice clean look of a carburated engine and the versatility of EFI. I don't really know what all makes them work, but judging by the look of the 350 in my dad's '92 GMC it doesn't take a whole lot.

It is probably completely different but the feedback carburator system that came on my 2.8 really turned me off on any electronics on a carburator aside from the choke. :bad:

[red85]

I've done a fair bit of research on this mod and I'm confident that it can be done with factory GM parts for far less than Holley is charging for their Pro Jection kits. Best bet is to find an early 90's Chevy truck with a V8. The computer need to do this is GM# 1227747. As long as you have that, the wiring harness and a few sensors (O2, TPS, IAT, ECT), you're golden. The fuel requirement on these systems is only 15-19 psi so finding a fuel pump shouldn't be too expensive.

[85_Ranger4x4]

What engine does that computer come with? I was thinking a setup off of a 305 should be pretty close for a 302, which is nice because those trucks don't hold their value all that well compared to a 350 truck.

[red85]

That computer came on everything from a 4.3 to 7.4 engines in CK series trucks, vans, Astro/Safari vans, and S trucks. Ideally if you get one, the 305 will have a PROM in it that will closely match our blue oval powerplants. Just make sure you get all the sensors with it.

[85_Ranger4x4]

Sorry to hyjack this a little, but how well do you suppose all this would work on my 289? Are TB's different between engines or are they the same like the computers? I wouldn't think they would be the same but then I wouldn't have guessed the computers were either.

What is a PROM? That is one Acronym I have never came across

[red85]

No problem. It would likely work just fine on a 289. Just need to make an adapter plate to mount your TBI unit on the carb intake. A PROM is a programmable read only memory. GM computers were often updated with different PROM chips. These chips are pressed into a socket on the PCM's board much the same way as a RAM module is installed on a computer motherboard.

[85_Ranger4x4]

I did some poking around and found this, I notice they mention more sensors on it: the MAP, which doesn't sound all that hard to retrofit, the knock senser which could be tough, and the ESC or the electronic spark control, which means if the ignition is tied into this thing too we could have a problem there. Or are these not an issue with the one computer you specified?

http://www.goingfaster.com/spo/tbi.html


Best line in the whole site, and I barely know what a PROM chip is.:icon_rofl:
Your factory PROM chip is a brainwashed tree hugging hippy.

[baddad457]

Prior to yanking the 5.0L out of my Ranger in preparation for the big motor, my ranger had been sitting in the same place, unstarted for 4 months. Went out, put the battery back in, hit the key and it started on the first try. Try that with a carb! LOL.

I do it all the time with the 5.0 in my Ranger. Sits for weeks at a time in the yard. Go out, bump the starter and it fires right up. It's all in the cam choice and carb selection and tuning.:D

[BigBlockRanger]

EFI doods.

Looky:

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/index.php?id=28&title=Ford+Throttle+Body+Fuel+Injection

[Mutant Pony]

EFI doods.

Looky:

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/index.php?id=28&title=Ford+Throttle+Body+Fuel+Injection

Affordable? What a joke. Might as well just use that money as a down payment on a truck that came with fuel injection.
You can buy a carb and intake And everything to make it Run for under $500 if you buy it all brand new. It would cost me Less than $200 because I'm not afraid of used parts.

[baddad457]

EFI doods.

Looky:

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/index.php?id=28&title=Ford+Throttle+Body+Fuel+Injection

Ford A321 intake: $175 (new) Holley 570 Street Avenger ( $135 used) Fuel pump : $25 (30 gal/hr Advance Auto Parts) Holley L/P regulator ($20) 20 ft 3/8 fuel hose and filter : less than $30. few feet wire and connectors $5. Reman Ford distributor ($55 Advance Auto Parts) :headbang:Beat that.:icon_idea:

[BigBlockRanger]

Geez, I just posted that so maybe some of the guys interested in TBI's and GM computer's *might* get an idea of what parts they need.

:rolleyes:

baddad457, you have alway come across to me as a prick and this post is no different. Beat that? Beat what? You found a bunch of cheapo parts that could convert a Ranger to a carb (and screw it up so it would never pass state inspection around these parts). So freakin what? Instead of being a dick, maybe next time you could try to... I know this may be hard for you.... help these guys piece togeter a low buck EFI systen instead of blabbing about how wonderful carbs are.

:annoyed::annoyed::annoyed:

[baddad457]

The only "dick" here is you, :icon_idea:I couldn't care less what the hell you think anyway.:thefinger: This thread IS all about CARB VS EFI isn't it? Or did you bother to READ the title? Seems to me, you're the sore loser(you can always tell who that is from the name calling they resort to:idiot:) and can't stand the fact that someone else can piece together something that's probably beyond your comprehension abilities.:icon_confused: So what, it won't pass emissions where you're at? Who the hell cares ? It ain't my fault you choose to live somewhere, where you gotta ask "permission" from the government to take a crap.:nopityA: I'll match my carb setup to your high dollar "wonderful" EFI system anytime. And when it seems to get out of tune, I'll have it fixed twice as fast for half the cost.:icon_rofl:

[85_Ranger4x4]

I don't mind carbs, and I found his link very informative. You are buying all new stuff from that website, with enough markup for them to keep the lights on. I bet you could find the setup from a junkyard or someone ditching it to run either a different fuel injection setup or a carb alot cheaper than that and probably more in line with what you guesstimate your used carb stuff being. I have priced new stuff for a carb setup, it isn't exactly cheap either, unless you stumble apoun a deal. Not sure about your area but late 80's/early 90's Chevy pickups might as well be growing on trees around here, stuff should be pretty cheap and easy to find.

From what I understand assuming you have electric choke there is only 3 more wires than a carb, sounds pretty stupid simple to me. Like I mentioned before my dad's GMC would pass for being carbed until you got to looking at it, there is not much going on wiring wise under there.

[BigBlockRanger]

The only "dick" here is you, :icon_idea:I couldn't care less what the hell you think anyway.:thefinger: This thread IS all about CARB VS EFI isn't it? Or did you bother to READ the title? Seems to me, you're the sore loser(you can always tell who that is from the name calling they resort to:idiot:) and can't stand the fact that someone else can piece together something that's probably beyond your comprehension abilities.:icon_confused: So what, it won't pass emissions where you're at? Who the hell cares ? It ain't my fault you choose to live somewhere, where you gotta ask "permission" from the government to take a crap.:nopityA: I'll match my carb setup to your high dollar "wonderful" EFI system anytime. And when it seems to get out of tune, I'll have it fixed twice as fast for half the cost.:icon_rofl:


There's so much ignorance and flat out stupidity in this quote that I'm just going to have to leave it alone. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll be typing all day.....

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Psychopete]

can't stand the fact that someone else can piece together something that's probably beyond your comprehension abilities.:icon_confused:

I'd love to see how well an EFI system works that you've tuned as he has described. I don't know how you can justify saying something as such.

So what, it won't pass emissions where you're at? Who the hell cares ? It ain't my fault you choose to live somewhere, where you gotta ask "permission" from the government to take a crap.

No emission testing here, but I know my days are probably numbered. With things going the way they are, you shouldn't rely on that. Sorry, read the news:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/11/terrorist.surveillance.ap/index.html

Yeah, soon enough you'll have to ask for the government's permission to take a crap. Then they'll want to analyze it, thereafter.

I'll match my carb setup to your high dollar "wonderful" EFI system anytime. And when it seems to get out of tune, I'll have it fixed twice as fast for half the cost.:icon_rofl:

That's the thing, an EFI system won't come out of tune.... An EFI system might have an issue... every two years (and that's generously)? I didn't have to touch mine for 3 years after I rebuilt my 2.9L, and it was running on old EFI sensors from before the rebuild (maybe even some stock?). A carb needs re-tuned every season change, yes?

I have both EFI (177) and carb (327); they work.

Pete

[baddad457]

My carbed setups last just as long as EFI. I've yet to have to make any adjustments to the setup in my Ranger and it's been running as is for two years now. You tune his EFI setup, I'll stick to what I know works. None of my carbs need adjustments with seasonal changes. That includes the triple two barrel setup on my 331. When you think a carb is out of tune, 90% of the time it's an ignition problem, 5% of that is fuel quality related (dirt or water in fuel) and the rest MAY be a carb issue.:rolleyes:

[baddad457]

There's so much ignorance and flat out stupidity in this quote that I'm just going to have to leave it alone. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll be typing all day.....

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:nopityA:Yea, that's what I figured, you're in over your tiny little head.:icon_rofl:

[rusty ol ranger]

Fuel injection does the same exact thing a carb does....it gets fuel and air in the proper mix into the cylinder.

It just is 100X more complicated then it needs to be.

Cars have not progressed at all since the mid 70's, really, as far as engine mangement and emissions and what not go.....they just made waht was already being done more complicated so it could not be serviced by anyone but the dealer.

Press the acclerator on a 78 F150....does the engine rev? Yes. Press the acclerator on a 07 F150.....does the engine rev? Yes. On the 78 A throttle cable opened up the butterflys and more fuel was sent to the cylinders.

On the 07, the TB opens, sends a signal to this sensor, which sends one to this sensor, which sends to another, whcih sends it to the computer, which then finally opens up the pulse width on the injector and tells the engine to speed up.

Same thing....only more complicated.

later,
Dustin

[BigBlockRanger]

LOL I'm not the one that had to go back and edit my responses.....

:clapping:

[baddad457]

LOL I'm not the one that had to go back and edit my responses.....

:clapping:

And that means what ? Only that you're simple minded.:bsflag::idiot:Can't you come up with something more intelligent as a reply ? :icon_confused: Something relevent to the debate ? I'll give you a clue: when the title of the thread includes "VS" that means you're supposed to ARGUE your point, not name call your opponent, like a 5 year old :icon_rofl:

[BigBlockRanger]

It means I can compose a response without having to think about it and come back and change or add to what I said.

Check the title again blabber mouth. Funny, I don't see "VS" in it anywhere.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/nutkick.gif

[85_Ranger4x4]

And that means what ? Only that you're simple minded.:bsflag::idiot:Can't you come up with something more intelligent as a reply ? :icon_confused: Something relevent to the debate ? I'll give you a clue: when the title of the thread includes "VS" that means you're supposed to ARGUE your point, not name call your opponent, like a 5 year old :icon_rofl:

I think the Carb vs EFI debate has raged in about every version of TRS and neither side has ever really won, because for every plus with one system has a fault in another area.

Aside from barging into an intellegant conversation about a super simple EFI swap that IMO would make a fool out of either setup I don't think your last few posts have really brought anything special to the table that hasn't been discussed before. Not to mention it is getting annoying, I have to side with BigBlock on this one, you can come across as being fairly abrasive.

[baddad457]

That goes both ways too. Neither of you are smooth operators yourselves. :icon_rofl:

[baddad457]

It means I can compose a response without having to think about it and come back and change or add to what I said.

Check the title again blabber mouth. Funny, I don't see "VS" in it anywhere.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/nutkick.gif

Ok, so "VS" isn't there but if you'll READ the title, it implies that this was meant to be a debate. Nothing wrong with editing a post either,I guess it takes you longer to comprehend things before you speak. If that's the best you can come back with, you need to just go off to your corner and sulk to yourself. :bye:

[BigBlockRanger]

I guess it takes you longer to comprehend things before you speak.

Uhh.... again, I'm not the one that had to go back and edit my responses.

No sulking here. I see your banter as being no different that that of namby-pamby 3rd grader on the playground. I have said what I wanted in post #48. No need to continue this further because I seriously doubt you could ever get the best of me intellectually.

Now, back to my coffee.... :c-n:

[Will]

Fuel injection does the same exact thing a carb does....it gets fuel and air in the proper mix into the cylinder.

It just is 100X more complicated then it needs to be.

later,
Dustin

You want complicated?
http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=525&stc=1&d=1194972565

You want simple?
http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=526&stc=1&d=1194972608

Get THIS BOOK (http://www.amazon.com/Ford-Injection-Electronic-Engine-Control/dp/0837603013) and learn about EEC and you'll have a leg to stand on. I thoroughly understand both.

A basic carb would be air rushing by a hole and the low pressure across the mouth of that hole draws fuel into the stream of passing air. The other 400 parts on the carb I showed above are patches to try to get the method to work well. There are multiple patches to try and make the transition from idle to full power; patches to keep the engine from suddnely shutting off if the throttle is released; patches to crudely enrich the mixture so it will start and then run while cold; patces to crudely enrich the mixture so you can stomp the pedal to the floor without it going lean and blowing the aircleaner off. There are patches to keep the fuel from sloshing away from the jets on corners and bumps and hills; patches to increase the airspeed at low rpms so it will actually draw fuel, while then trying to slow it back down at high rpms so the airstream will not go turbulent and stop metering altogether. There are patches on top of patches on top of patches on top of patches.

EFI is clean and simple. Solid state components that are so reliable you don't even know they exist. Electromagentic components just as reliable. There's about a dozen wires connecting it all together. It adjusts for differnet weather, altitudes and even fuel characteristics--something a carb can't do with even another 100 patches on it. It doesn't stall on hills, it does a way better job of atomizing the fuel--you don't have to go artifically rich because its sprayed right at the port, not released into the airstream a foot and 2 90-degree angles up stream.

A carb is a piece of shit.

That said, it is easy to get your engine running by buying one and throwing it on. I won't deny that. But it's not a route I would take if you are running an engine that Ford made an EFI system for. You would probably get all the parts you need for $50 to set up an EFI. Used EFI components are 1000% more reliable than used carbs. You have to be on the ball to know if you even have all the parts to a carb you buy used. Unless it's an 1850 Holley or a universal AFB, it might not be possible to find the documentation to see if it's all there. That goes for rebuilt ones from Autozone as well.

Speaking of Autozone and carbs. Most people's carbs fail (or they think they fail) so they go to Autozone, the schmuck behind the counter gives them a rebuild and they go slap it on. The core, which has already been through the caustic tank 4,000 times, makes another trip to Mexico and it's 4,001. The orifices and passages in the aluminum or magnesium body get a little bit bigger, reducing the velocity of the shot or the velocity of the ported air or the velocity of the fuel. Some of these carbs are way shot and never seem to work very well even if they were assembled correctly.

If you get a carb, get an AFB type new--they are better than a Holley out of the box and less prone to leak. But I would get the book I linked to up there, read about EFI and then find the used parts to put together a good fuel system.

[baddad457]

Uhh.... again, I'm not the one that had to go back and edit my responses.

No sulking here. I see your banter as being no different that that of namby-pamby 3rd grader on the playground. I have said what I wanted in post #48. No need to continue this further because I seriously doubt you could ever get the best of me intellectually.

Now, back to my coffee.... :c-n:That's the BEST you can come back with ????? :icon_rofl:I edited my posts???:icon_rofl: How ANAL can anyone get ???? The only third grader here is you. You are the one, who in failing to come up with anything relevent, had to resort to name calling.................... that my friend is what third graders do. :icon_rofl::icon_rofl:

You're about as intellectual as a fence post. :stirthepot: :icon_rofl:I've had better conversations with a tree. :nono:

[baddad457]

You want complicated?
http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=525&stc=1&d=1194972565

You want simple?
http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=526&stc=1&d=1194972608

Get THIS BOOK (http://www.amazon.com/Ford-Injection-Electronic-Engine-Control/dp/0837603013) and learn about EEC and you'll have a leg to stand on. I thoroughly understand both.

A basic carb would be air rushing by a hole and the low pressure across the mouth of that hole draws fuel into the stream of passing air. The other 400 parts on the carb I showed above are patches to try to get the method to work well. There are multiple patches to try and make the transition from idle to full power; patches to keep the engine from suddnely shutting off if the throttle is released; patches to crudely enrich the mixture so it will start and then run while cold; patces to crudely enrich the mixture so you can stomp the pedal to the floor without it going lean and blowing the aircleaner off. There are patches to keep the fuel from sloshing away from the jets on corners and bumps and hills; patches to increase the airspeed at low rpms so it will actually draw fuel, while then trying to slow it back down at high rpms so the airstream will not go turbulent and stop metering altogether. There are patches on top of patches on top of patches on top of patches.

EFI is clean and simple. Solid state components that are so reliable you don't even know they exist. Electromagentic components just as reliable. There's about a dozen wires connecting it all together. It adjusts for differnet weather, altitudes and even fuel characteristics--something a carb can't do with even another 100 patches on it. It doesn't stall on hills, it does a way better job of atomizing the fuel--you don't have to go artifically rich because its sprayed right at the port, not released into the airstream a foot and 2 90-degree angles up stream.

A carb is a piece of shit.

That said, it is easy to get your engine running by buying one and throwing it on. I won't deny that. But it's not a route I would take if you are running an engine that Ford made an EFI system for. You would probably get all the parts you need for $50 to set up an EFI. Used EFI components are 1000% more reliable than used carbs. You have to be on the ball to know if you even have all the parts to a carb you buy used. Unless it's an 1850 Holley or a universal AFB, it might not be possible to find the documentation to see if it's all there. That goes for rebuilt ones from Autozone as well.

Speaking of Autozone and carbs. Most people's carbs fail (or they think they fail) so they go to Autozone, the schmuck behind the counter gives them a rebuild and they go slap it on. The core, which has already been through the caustic tank 4,000 times, makes another trip to Mexico and it's 4,001. The orifices and passages in the aluminum or magnesium body get a little bit bigger, reducing the velocity of the shot or the velocity of the ported air or the velocity of the fuel. Some of these carbs are way shot and never seem to work very well even if they were assembled correctly.

If you get a carb, get an AFB type new--they are better than a Holley out of the box and less prone to leak. But I would get the book I linked to up there, read about EFI and then find the used parts to put together a good fuel system.

Only thing I see wrong with your post is your choice of a GM carb. The Quadra-jet is probably THE most complicated carb ever made. No one I know will use or want one. Why not post a diagram of one of the simplest, and many think. the most reliable carb made---- Ford's 2100/4100 series. Holley's are almost as simple & just as reliable. Once you have properly tuned a carb-------LEAVE IT ALONE. If there's a problem, it's almost always something other than the carb causing it. You also left off all the wiring that goes with the EFI system. And the circuit boards and other parts inside the ECM, those are all parts too, parts that can and do fail. And don't forget the wiring connections------get that wrong and the system is far from reliable. One little glitch disables the whole thing. EFI doesn't stall on hills ? I wish you had been with me a few years back when my 95 E150 did. Vapor Locked, coming up out of Boulder Canyon just outside of Las Vegas. Sure, the parts are reliable, but when they do fail, they can be a bitch to diagnose. The only situation an EFI system shines over a carb is in drastic altitude changes. Weather changes ? No. People who try that are needlessly screwing with something they're never going to be satisfied with anyway. You repeatedly speak of "patches" in the carb for different operating circumstances, you forget that the ECM handles that function, and someone had to program that to start with. Same thing really, somebody had to come up with a "patch" in the computer program to take care of a certain operating circumstance. Both perform the same function, only one sprays the fuel, the other relies on the engine's airflow to draw the fuel. One can be as reliable as the other if you take the time to learn each.

[BigBlockRanger]

That's the BEST you can come back with ????? :icon_rofl:I edited my posts???:icon_rofl: How ANAL can anyone get ???? The only third grader here is you. You are the one, who in failing to come up with anything relevent, had to resort to name calling.................... that my friend is what third graders do. :icon_rofl::icon_rofl:

You're about as intellectual as a fence post. :stirthepot: :icon_rofl:I've had better conversations with a tree. :nono:


I really just keep replying just to see how big of an ass you will make of yourself. So far, you're doing a great job. Keep it up. The more you post, the better we see what kind of person you truly are.

Now, maybe you should stop talking to me and go have a debate with a tree.

[Anxiously awaiting your sub-intelligent response...]

[Mac]

Why don't you two take it some where else, this thread is going no where! One of you grow up and just drop it, no one is going to win. It's the rest of us that are the losers.
Dave

[281Ranger]

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I just wanted to point something out.

None of my carbs need adjustments with seasonal changes.

Baddad,
I can understand why you say your carbs always stay in tune, where you live (La.) the temps stay fairly warm year round. The starter of this thread, Iron Ranger, lives in Minnesota (I'm guessing northern MN by his name). Here the temps range from 100+ in the summer to -30 and colder in the winter. Sure a carb will work here all year without a tune, just not well. EFI, on the other hand, adjusts for these changes.

[red85]

Come on guys. Back into your corners LOL. EFI or carb? Use whatever you can A: afford, B: figure out without too much difficulty and C: will suit your application best. If you're running a trail crawler that spends much of the time on steep angles, then make sure you can continuously fuel your engine. If it's a dragstrip terror then get something that will supply a bucket load of fuel when you mash the gas. Choice is yours. Just by doing a little research you'll find what's best for you. Personally I like when people ask about this stuff, because it usually puts a new idea in my head.

Phil

[baddad457]

I really just keep replying just to see how big of an ass you will make of yourself. So far, you're doing a great job. Keep it up. The more you post, the better we see what kind of person you truly are.

Now, maybe you should stop talking to me and go have a debate with a tree.

[Anxiously awaiting your sub-intelligent response...]

You just keep replying with meaningless comebacks don't you. :D What's wrong, you can't do any better ? Or maybe I should edit this to give you something to talk about ? :rolleyes:

[baddad457]

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I just wanted to point something out.



Baddad,
I can understand why you say your carbs always stay in tune, where you live (La.) the temps stay fairly warm year round. The starter of this thread, Iron Ranger, lives in Minnesota (I'm guessing northern MN by his name). Here the temps range from 100+ in the summer to -30 and colder in the winter. Sure a carb will work here all year without a tune, just not well. EFI, on the other hand, adjusts for these changes.
Temps here range from 100 to 20* above 0. Still no changes needed. 30 below, I'd have to make one change-------install a choke. I completely remove them otherwise they're nothing but a problem that you don't need here.

[red85]

You want complicated?
http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=525&stc=1&d=1194972565


Jeez Loiuse! I thought my shotgun manual made stuff look complicated:icon_confused:

[Will]

You can't vaper lock an EFI. It's a LOOP with an electric pump.

The reason I posted the Quadrajet is because it's the last carburater standing in the US--used on HD Chevy pickups until 1988 in the 7.4 liter. It was the only one that could be cobbled together enough to meet emissions that late.

Do you know why cars get poor emissions? Because they are running poorly somewhere in their rpm range. There is no linear device on them. They have a series of 3-6 steps of changes in devices participating in metering fuel, and each of those devices has a single airflow measurment where it works well. It's like a digital image with 100 pixels compared an EFI having 100 megapixels. The Quadrajet was the best of them, that's why I used it. Any carb has more components than an EFI though. An EFI adjusts to circumstances--it's in no way a series of patch jobs. Yes, it's programmed. Yes someone programmed it. Yes, a real computer ike the one you are typing on is inside that box in the kick panel.

Show me a carb with 12 parts and you'll be showing me a plastic Briggs carb.

[rusty ol ranger]

The good thing about a carb is though....

When it fails....4 bolts and you can have a new one.

When EFI fails....you cant replace the whole system with a new one.

later,
Dustin

[BigBlockRanger]

The good thing about a carb is though....

When it fails....4 bolts and you can have a new one.

When EFI fails....you cant replace the whole system with a new one.

later,
Dustin


Nor would you need to. Just replace the faulty component, turn the key and go.

When I pulled the 2.9L out of my '86, I added 2 injector plugs, I literally plugged in an '88 F-150 Speed Density computer to the existing harness and was 99% done with the wiring. A couple of wires needed to be lengthened here an there due to the physical size difference of the 2.9 and 5.0, but that was it. In fact, I would say it was really easier than installing a carb because there was no tuning required whatsoever. Turn key, motor runs. Simple.

Was it cheap? Engine was already set up for EFI, so it cost me a whopping $45 for a used the ECM and I already had a couple injector connectors laying around.

Did it run good? Engine was an E6 headed, HO cammed, 5.0L, which was basically a stock 86 HO spec motor, and it ran like it. It ran 15.2's at out local track that is at 3600' MSL, which is on par with LT1 Camaros/Firebirds around here.

The really cool thing now is that if you want to upgrade the ECM, there is an EEC-IV to Megasquirt adapter board available, that allows you to plug the MS directly into you existing harness. The MS kit is $140 or so and the adapter board is around $40 or so. This is actually the route I have taken with the 545. I kept the majority of the stock 2.9L harness and have the adapter board plugged into harness and the MS.

To each his own I suppose, but it really seems like guys blow the complexity and cost of EFI out of proportion.

[Dangeranger3]

Nor would you need to. Just replace the faulty component, turn the key and go.



But the problem I see is finding the faulty component. Sure it [I]might[I] throw a code, but that might not even fix the problem. This is a fun thread as long as everyone stays on topic with good points :tease:

[Will]

I encourage anyone that deals with engines to check out that book (http://www.amazon.com/Ford-Injection-Electronic-Engine-Control/dp/0837603013). Only then will you see the simplistic beauty of EFI.

THIS (http://www.amazon.com/Holly-Carburetor-Handbook-4150-Hp473/dp/0895860473) is a great little book that will help you learn about tuning carbs. It will also help you understand how many compromises a carb makes that EFI doesn't have to.

I'm done talking about this.

[baddad457]

You can't vaper lock an EFI. It's a LOOP with an electric pump.

The reason I posted the Quadrajet is because it's the last carburater standing in the US--used on HD Chevy pickups until 1988 in the 7.4 liter. It was the only one that could be cobbled together enough to meet emissions that late.

Do you know why cars get poor emissions? Because they are running poorly somewhere in their rpm range. There is no linear device on them. They have a series of 3-6 steps of changes in devices participating in metering fuel, and each of those devices has a single airflow measurment where it works well. It's like a digital image with 100 pixels compared an EFI having 100 megapixels. The Quadrajet was the best of them, that's why I used it. Any carb has more components than an EFI though. An EFI adjusts to circumstances--it's in no way a series of patch jobs. Yes, it's programmed. Yes someone programmed it. Yes, a real computer ike the one you are typing on is inside that box in the kick panel.

Show me a carb with 12 parts and you'll be showing me a plastic Briggs carb.

Can't vapor lock it ? Yea, that's what I thought too. While on the phone arranging a tow, a US Park Ranger stopped and told me it was vapor lock. I told him , no this is EFI. He told me, doesn't matter here, this place is like the Bermuda Triangle. Told me to let it cool down and it would start. 30 minutes later it did. The motor in an E series van is in a box. The fan clutch wasn't operating. Outside temp was 115*. Road speed was 10-15 mph. No air in the box, nothing to cool the fuel lines,,,,,,,,,,,,,, vapor lock. Don't believe it, whatever dude. It can happen. The Quadra-shit wasn't the last US carb. Those were Ford/Holley's used in Ford Crown Vic cop cars on 351's. Want a carb with 12 parts ? Pickup an Autolite 2100. You're not very well versed in carburetors, just as I'm not the same with EFI. Post a COMPLETE wiring diagram for an EFI system, showing ALL the circuits, then we'll see which is more complicated.