View Full Version : Bent/tweaked axle shaft/axle housing?
2004 Ranger regular cab longbed 4x2
A while back I was cut off on the highway while pulling a trailer. I was able to keep it relatively straight for about a quarter mile until the trailer pulled me around, jackknifed, then slid me sideways (driver's side first) at about 60 mph. Truck was drivable, but it had some issues I've been repairing as I get the cash.
I've had the truck on a frame rack, it checked out fine.
Additionally, I've replaced the following items:
-Rear spring hangers (bent)
-Rear shackles (bent)
-All shocks
-Rear springs (bent?)
-Wheels (bent)
-Tires
It aligns perfectly, and on straight, level pavement it drives fine until you get on/get off the gas. With each part(s) I've replaced, it's gotten progressively better, ie. no more vibrations, no more wild jerks from the wheel, so I replaced the crappy, badly-worn tires I had been waiting to do until I got everything else squared away, and now I have a new issue: (after which my mechanic thought it was bent springs, so those were then replaced, to no avail)
When accelerating, it feels like the rear is moving, causing the truck to turn to the left. When letting off the accelerator it returns to straight. This isn't noticable when coasting, nor is it present when braking, unless it's just after I let off the gas. Likewise, bumps alone don't upset the suspension, unless accelerating/decelerating. This isn't too bad when on surface streets, but at 60 mph, it gets a bit uncomfortable.
My question is, what could be going on here? It's more than a "pull," as the rear of the truck seems to "pivot" outward to the right under the above conditions. Everything in the rear is tight, as I checked it when I recently replaced rear springs. (it behaves the same now as before the springs were replaced) I've checked the tranny mount and it appears to be tight also.
I did have some seepage develop on the D/S of the rear diff cover shortly after the accident, which leads me to believe maybe the rear end is tweaked, and I'm hoping that maybe a new/rebuilt rear axle could finally resolve the last of my problems. (what else is there? LOL!) what do you think?
baddis
09-30-2007, 09:04 PM
maybe a bent wheel but that should have showen up when you had the tires balanced
AllanD
09-30-2007, 09:17 PM
a bent axle shaft would be felt as a constant fluttering vibration.
a bent housing as a steady "pull" to one side or the other.
But unless you actually hit something while sliding (I.E. a curb or similar)
I don't see the axle housing getting bent.
AD
baddis: I replaced all four wheels and tires, as stated in the initial post.
AllanD: With each part, or pair of parts, replaced the handling/vibrations has/have improved/disappeared, leaving me with the pull as the only problem. I feel like I'm so close to having this truck completely repaired.
I did reuse the u-bolts and I understand they are torque to yield and shouldn't be reused, but money's been so tight that I didn't have a choice. Do you think that maybe there is enough movement at the axle and spring to cause that kind of shift? They are next on the list to be ordered.
At any rate, I didn't hit anything during the slide, it was in the middle of the interstate. I don't have the fluttering, and it's not steady. I'm at a loss as to what it may be, unless it could be something as simple as the u-bolts; I can't think of anything else back there I question aside from that as I've thoroughly looked it over many times.
How heavy was the trailer?
Even if you didn't hit anything, the trailer isn't going to let you tip over even if you wanted to. So you could have bent the tubes because you can't tell how much force it was putting on the road. If everything is straight as you say it is, I think it bend the tubes.
By the way, with functioning trailer brakes that shit don't happen.
I'm not sure of the trailer weight at the time, or empty for that matter, but the load was a skinny 23 ft. utility pole on a 16' flat deck.
Jspafford
10-03-2007, 10:38 PM
If it was a car carrier type trailer with a wooden floor I am going to guess it weighed about 1900# empty. My sister had one just like it.
Very well could have tweaked the axle tubes or housing while being slide sideways against normal range of motion.
If the rear end is moving around, are you sure the U-bolts are tight and none of the leaves are broken?
Jspafford:That's the kind.
MAKG: The springs were just replaced, as stated in the initial post. I rechecked the u-bolts today, still tight and torqued.
I'm wondering if indeed the axle housing is bent, as it travels through the arc of the suspension cycle, it throws the truck out of alignment. Same when getting on or off the gas, it moves the suspension enough to allow it to travel to the point it's out of alignment. I need to find a shop that can check the axle housing, anybody near St. Louis that can recommend a shop? Hell, what kind of shop would do that? Machine shop? I've never had to mess with an axle or any of it's components before.
Thoughts, comments?
Jspafford
10-04-2007, 07:20 PM
You need a frame and suspension shop. We have one around here in Ohio called "Nelson Frame & Axle" be on the lookout for something with that heading and they should be able to help you out.
Well, I looked in the phone book, nothing so far. I'm going to call around tomorrow and see what I can dig up.
I got a chance to drive the truck today. When I was out, I put it in neutral and let it coast a couple blocks; a couple turns, some bumps, no problems. -Steering is dead on, bumps don't seem to upset it, everything seems fine. When you step on/let off the accelerator, that's when the rear pulls to the left. I just don't get what could be going on, I gave the motor and tranny mounts another visual today, there's no movement, even when the clutch is let out and the engine torques the driveshaft against the parking brake. I can't see anything amiss, and everything leads me to the conclusion that it could only be the rear axle. I would think that if it were in the front suspension (2 wheel drive) that coasting along and having the suspension cycle would throw it off; it doesn't.
Is there a way to check and axle for true while on the truck, or if I'm going to that much trouble, should I just get a salvage rearend and throw it under there? ON EDIT: I just checked a local yard's online inventory, they have an 2006 with the same specs as mine and low mileage, will an 06 Plug and Play? I know it will fit, but was anything changed between 04 and 06 that would prevent a direct swap? ie. ABS and plugs?
I am pulling my hair out, and that's tough, because I have a shaved head! :mad:
baddis
10-07-2007, 11:37 PM
a body shop should be able to hook you up with a frame machine.
baddis: A frame machine to check the rear axle housing? I've already had it to a body shop and put on the rack, everything checked out ok, at rest.
baddis
10-08-2007, 11:08 AM
maybe the body shops i use has a different machine.
rickcdewitt
10-08-2007, 11:34 AM
if you pulled the axle shafts and carrier you could put a strait rod through the housing to check it.thats what an axle shop will do to check it.
Thanks, Rick, I called around and found a shop that's going to look at it tomorrow. Hopefully they find something. (yes, that's what I am hoping for, so I can fix it.)
AllanD
10-08-2007, 09:41 PM
You don't actually need a straight rod, just pull BOTH axle shafts and sight through.
Even a slight bend in the tubes is OBVIOUS.
Yes, sighting through the tubes fails to give you a measurement,
but trust me if you can't see the bend by looking through then it
isn't relevant to anyone other than someone racing at Bonneville.
AD
Jspafford
10-08-2007, 09:48 PM
You say it happens when you accelerate and decelerate. Let think of what happens when you do this. It is obvioulsy not transmission related. The only thing I can think of that happens durning those times is the axle will want to twist upwards when accelerating, and downwards when decelerating.
You triple checked the spring right? Does the truck have a sway bar? Sound to me like the rear end is moving a little too much when under stress and wandering.
rickcdewitt
10-09-2007, 12:36 AM
You don't actually need a straight rod, just pull BOTH axle shafts and sight through.
Even a slight bend in the tubes is OBVIOUS.
Yes, sighting through the tubes fails to give you a measurement,
but trust me if you can't see the bend by looking through then it
isn't relevant to anyone other than someone racing at Bonneville.
ADi prefer to do it the way axle shops do it,and you can buy machined stock pretty cheap and then have it for checking bearing saddles,etc.since so much was destroyed i would want to rule it out.the rear end WILL wear out prematurely if the housing is bent.as far as a bent axle causing the pull,that would probably show up on an alignment as set back in the rear.i was just telling him the correct way to check the housing though i'm leaning twards what spafford said about suspension problems.
Jspafford: I didn't think it was tranny-related, just mentioned that in the interest of ruling out anything else that could be moving anywhere in the driveline. Springs were triple checked then replaced after a shop told me they were 95% sure it was bent springs. The sway bar was removed some time ago as it was tweaked as well.
Now, since the axle tries to twist upward during acceleration, could the axle not be bent in such a way that this movement causes the bend to be in the proper orientation to cause the pull only when in the "upward" position? I've had a four wheel alignment done three times, and not once did anything appear abnormal in the rear, I saw the printout myself. When not under load, it drives straight. I'm no suspension expert, but thinking it out logically, couldn't this be the case?
I'm taking it over to a shop in a little bit and have them check the rear housing. I'll report what they say.
After talking to a couple different people, all seem to think it's a bent axle housing. As such, I picked up a salvage axle with half as many miles as my truck and am working to install that.
My latest question, I know when you drop the driveshaft to replace u-joints you should mark the yoke and the flange to preserve balance, what do you do when swapping a rearend? Is that one of those situations where you just have to match it up the same orientation as the original, then move it 180 degrees if you get vibration?
Also, does the rear diff cover need a gasket, or is RTV sufficient?
Thanks!
RTV is entirely sufficient for a gearbox. I use ultra-black.
I don't believe the driveshaft is balanced at the factory together with the pinion, so it really shouldn't matter which orientation you use. If you do happen to get a new driveline vibration, you can play with the orientation to try to cancel it out like you say. You can also play games with hose clamps on the driveshaft itself.
I have a Fel-Pro cork gasket, but I may return that and use the RTV.... Doesn't cork swell or degrade when in contact with oil?
*ON EDIT* If I were to use the cork gasket, that would be dry, with NO RTV, correct?
I'll admit, I'm ignorant when it comes to automotive sealants, the guy at the parts store sold me Permatex Ultra Copper, will this work, or should I get a different type?
Also, is "ultra black" a brand name or a type of Permatex brand sealant? I forget...
4x4junkie
10-12-2007, 05:31 PM
"Ultra Black" is what Permatex calls theirs, yes.
It's made for gearboxes and differentials.
IIRC, the copper was for hi-temp stuff like exhaust (how RTV holds up on that I can't say though)
AllanD
10-12-2007, 11:05 PM
Yeah, you can do it the way axle shops do it, but you
can see the vast majority of bent tubes the way I outlined.
And save yourself the effort.
what the straight machined rod is for is to verify that one
you BELIEVE is straight really IS straight.
One that is OVBIOUSLY BENT is a waste of time to test
more precisely.
It's like doing an autopsy on someone you and fifty other witnesses WATCHED blow their own brains out with a shotgun.
This why I suggested a quick and dirty "field test".
My test will tell you QUICKLY if further testing is justified.
If it isn't OBVIOUSLY bent then it simply can't be causing
the problem described.
AD
i prefer to do it the way axle shops do it,and you can buy machined stock pretty cheap and then have it for checking bearing saddles,etc.since so much was destroyed i would want to rule it out.the rear end WILL wear out prematurely if the housing is bent.as far as a bent axle causing the pull,that would probably show up on an alignment as set back in the rear.i was just telling him the correct way to check the housing though i'm leaning twards what spafford said about suspension problems.
rickcdewitt
10-13-2007, 11:17 AM
Yeah, you can do it the way axle shops do it, but you
can see the vast majority of bent tubes the way I outlined.
And save yourself the effort.
what the straight machined rod is for is to verify that one
you BELIEVE is straight really IS straight.
One that is OVBIOUSLY BENT is a waste of time to test
more precisely.
It's like doing an autopsy on someone you and fifty other witnesses WATCHED blow their own brains out with a shotgun.
This why I suggested a quick and dirty "field test".
My test will tell you QUICKLY if further testing is justified.
If it isn't OBVIOUSLY bent then it simply can't be causing
the problem described.
ADwith so much other stuff bent its a good idea to do it right.you can sight down the tubes but you can check the flanges at the ends of the axle tube with a rod and a right angle square.if the wheels were bent then the backing plates or flanges could be bent also.it doesn't seem like he's dealing with an OBVIOUS pretsel bend.i deal with a lot of collisions and it isen't always readily apparent.anyway its all bench racing under the bridge since hes getting a new rear end.
black or orange rtv will work fine if the parts are clean enough,i've used them both with no seepage.remember to get the same ratio axle from the wrecker when you are there.
As Allan said, do the quick and dirty test first, and if you know it's bent with that, stop.
This gives you one of two results:
1. Bad
2. Unknown
If it's bad, it's bad. If you don't know, THEN you go through the trouble of a more precise test.
This is very standard troubleshooting. Another example is, don't bother spending your $40 or $50 to Magnaflux your 2.9L heads if you can SEE cracks in them.
rickcdewitt
10-13-2007, 11:52 AM
As Allan said, do the quick and dirty test first, and if you know it's bent with that, stop.
This gives you one of two results:
1. Bad
2. Unknown
If it's bad, it's bad. If you don't know, THEN you go through the trouble of a more precise test.
This is very standard troubleshooting. Another example is, don't bother spending your $40 or $50 to Magnaflux your 2.9L heads if you can SEE cracks in them.he was going to take it to a shop to have it checked before he got a new axle.if i was going to pay i'de do it right but its irrelevant as the axle is going to the wrecker.if its visibly bent then theres no need to measure,that of course is obvious. like allen said if it looks good then you might use the rod to double check.also you'd have a hard time checking the flanges without a strait edge.i'm not suggesting you mike a cylinder bore with a piston hanging out the side:icon_twisted:.using common sense i'de say if the axle looked strait i'de check it anyway with a strait edge.if you diden't read that from my posts oh well,its all i mean't.no need to magnaflux his axle housing:stirthepot:
Well, I was able to find a used axle with half the mileage, installed it with new ubolts, took it for a test drive... AND... the same damn thing is happening.
I guess it wasn't the axle after all... which leads me to wonder where the hell to turn now. I can't afford to ditch the truck and trade it, I need to fix this.
What else could cause this? All that's left in the rear suspension is the front spring hangers and the upper shock mounts. What I'd really like to do is drop it off at a shop and pick it up a week, a month, I don't really care how long, as long as it's fixed. With the kind of shifting I am feeling, there is something definitely wrong, can I even fix it at this point or am I chasing something I'll never catch?
rickcdewitt
10-27-2007, 01:14 PM
don't lose hope its got to be in the suspension or frame.go back over it looking for loose brackets and suspension parts.check the front also.look at all the bolts and rivets for movement and cracks or wrinkles in the paint that might point to bent or cracked brackets.when you had the frame checked did you tell the frame shop your symptoms?
It seems to me that the shifting of the alignment when you step on the gas is indicative of something shifting or moving, vs a bent frame, where it would just crab down the road, correct? I understand that the frame can still be an issue, but basically, is the first statement mostly correct? I just had a thrust angle alignment done, and the problem seems to be worse now, that is, it seems to pull harder now that I've had an alignment.
I had the shop "check the frame." I know, real detailed there, but all I know is that they have a frame rack and they "checked" it out, LOL.
Could I have something bent in the front suspension that throws off the alignment when the weight transfers and the suspension cycles? Another symptom I should have mentioned is "stair-stepping" of the front tires' tread blocks.
AllanD
10-28-2007, 08:09 PM
My latest question, I know when you drop the driveshaft to replace u-joints you should mark the yoke and the flange to preserve balance, what do you do when swapping a rearend? Is that one of those situations where you just have to match it up the same orientation as the original, then move it 180 degrees if you get vibration?
Also, does the rear diff cover need a gasket, or is RTV sufficient?
Thanks!
The whole thing about matching the driveshaft to the rear to "maintain balance" is a load of crap, because when you have a driveshaft balanced
at a driveshaft shop they don't have the axle to spin with the driveshaft :)
If you have a driveshaft vibration issue don't move the driveshaft,
replace BOTH U-joints then have it balanced.
The driveshaft spins at 3000-4000rpm so I tend to worry about balance.
For the rear cover Ford never used a "gasket". RTV is factory. Get some permatex "Ultra" in the color of your choice.
a pull that varies with power application has GOT to be something OBVIOUS.
Though it could be something odd... if the truck tends to hook RIGHT on application of power check the right rear shock.
also try Swapping the rear tires side to side and see if the direction of the pull changes.
Trust me a lot of problems attributed to "something broken" turns out to be an internal issue with a tire.
AD
a pull that varies with power application has GOT to be something OBVIOUS.
Though it could be something odd... if the truck tends to hook RIGHT on application of power check the right rear shock.
also try Swapping the rear tires side to side and see if the direction of the pull changes.
Trust me a lot of problems attributed to "something broken" turns out to be an internal issue with a tire.
AD
I keep looking for something obvious, and it still seems to be eluding me... Tomorrow I plan on getting the truck up on ramps and giving everything the once over again. As far as the tires being the issue, they've been replaced, then swapped, then rotated; same symptom. I'm going to take a look at the upper shock mounts tomorrow, how do Rangers handle without shock absorbers? Think I can safely negotiate the block long enough to see if it pulls without them? LOL.... I'm willing to try anything at this point!
Oh yeah.... I did use a Fel-Pro gasket on the diff cover, seems to be working fine; RTV and myself don't get along, remember the old story (it was either here or RPS, I think) of the guy that got some type of chemical matter, it might have been roll-on bedliner, on his "hookus." That's the type of thing I'd do. Easier for me to use a gasket. :)
Ive driven without shocks before, its not too bad. Its just bouncy, and keeps on bouncing. It kinda feels ridiculous after a bit, but if you're only going around the block, you'll be fine.
Cool, sounds like I'll try that tomorrow... bouncy, bouncy, bouncy.... I'll tell em I got juice.
rickcdewitt
10-29-2007, 12:03 PM
haha you remember the explorer forum thread?if you pee with that stuff on your hands and forget about it maybe he deseved it.
That's where I heard it.... I think that was just about the longest thread I had ever seen, not to mention the funniest...
The "hookus..."
:D
Jspafford
10-29-2007, 03:05 PM
"HOOTUS" I believe
"HOOTUS" I believe
That's it! I sat here for about 30 minutes last night, trying to remember the exact word and which forum it was on. At least I've accomplished something today, even if it is off-topic.
Tomorrow I work on the truck, today was to be the day, but my dishwasher had other ideas.... but hey, I've got that back together, the floor is almost dry, water is not dripping into the basement anymore; I guess I've accomplished something, although if my glasses aren't squeaky clean, I'm throwing that thing across the yard! :thefinger: (piece of ****)
***ON EDIT*** I tried driving without the shocks, and while I mostly felt like I belonged in a Cheech and Chong movie, I also noticed that the pull is still there. The upper mounts are still solid and appear fine.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.