Ethanol instead of Methanol

[gizmo_21]

This might have been asked already but

Can you use ethanol in a methanol car???

We just bought a 1995 FFV ford Taurus and the car reads "warning only methanol and/or unleaded fuel only"

Pretty sure thats all i can use but would i be able to get away with E10... as thats all we have in Vancouver at the moment????

Any thoughts

Thanks

RY

[fastpakr]

I'm surprised it says methanol. My understanding was that all the FFV vehicles were set up for E85. You can definitely get away with E10 at a minimum.

[reno]

Did someone not say before that E85 you get crappy gas mileage?

[swamprat]

Did someone not say before that E85 you get crappy gas mileage?

Yeah, you dont get the mileage on E85 than you do with gas.

[Simple_serf]

If it says methanol, you'd probably be fine with Ethanol....methanol is VERY corrosive.

Hell, they are adding more and more ethanol around here without telling anyone (NYS allows this) I always love getting gas in PA...I get 4 more MPG on it.

[AllanD]

methanol is NOT the fuel for FFV vehicles.

AD

[gizmo_21]

methanol is NOT the fuel for FFV vehicles.

AD


http://www.methanol.org/altfuel/press/pr970610.html

"In 1991, Ford built more than 1,300 methanol FFVs, and in 1993, Ford began production of the methanol Taurus FFV, selling nearly 2,800 units. In both 1994 and 1995, Ford built 2,200 methanol Taurus sedans. The ethanol Taurus FFV was introduced in 1996"

please read!!!!!! my car is a 1995 FFV ford Taurus and as explained uses Methanol Only fuel... and i'm pretty sure FFV vechicals use both...

The letter stated that, "While fleet operators provide the core market for alternative fuel vehicles today, the real challenge is to break into the consumer marketplace. We suggest that California is the place to make this break, and the methanol Taurus FFV is the vehicle that can do it. Given the pricing of M-85 (a blend of 85% methanol and 15% gasoline) at the pump, the availability of an extensive fueling network, and the sticker price of the Taurus FFV, this is the time."


If it says methanol, you'd probably be fine with Ethanol....methanol is VERY corrosive.

Hell, they are adding more and more ethanol around here without telling anyone (NYS allows this) I always love getting gas in PA...I get 4 more MPG on it.

Hmmmm see i can't figure this one out!!!! some people say yes... some say no... at the moment it truely is 50/50...

from my understanding one uses oil base the other is only plants???

well thanks for the help so far guys... sorry i left this thread for awhile...

I'm still very nervous to try ethonal!!!

[thebatpeople]

Hmmmm see i can't figure this one out!!!! some people say yes... some say no... at the moment it truely is 50/50...

from my understanding one uses oil base the other is only plants???


I'm still very nervous to try ethonal!!!

Your milage on alcohol is totally dependant on the ECU controlling the vehicle. Some non-FFV can take E85 without any modifications because the ECU is programmed to adjust to a wider range of conditions. Others require some modification. A FFV is also a dice throw. Some makes & models & years will get better milage on E85 than others. If you get lower milage from the alcohol, then consider it a trade off for a longer lasting engine. Don't forget to use synthetic engine oil though. There are ways to improve your milage with after market ECUs & mod chips.

Methanol is currently made from distilling methane gas. It can also be made by distilling fumes from making charcol. :bad: Ethanol is the same alcohol that is in beer/wine/whisky. :icon_cheers: Ethanol is fermented sugar. Anything that contains sugars or starches can be turned into ethanol.

Methanol is corrosive & ethanol is not. I would have to assume that they took extra precautions to protect the your vehicle from the methanol, so you would be more than safe running ethanol in it. Ethanol & methanol have almost the same stats when it comes to using it as a fuel.

[gizmo_21]

Your milage on alcohol is totally dependant on the ECU controlling the vehicle.

Thats what i was told too!!

Don't forget to use synthetic engine oil though.

that was the first thing i read in the manual!!

Methanol is currently made from distilling methane gas. It can also be made by distilling fumes from making charcol. :bad: Ethanol is the same alcohol that is in beer/wine/whisky. :icon_cheers: Ethanol is fermented sugar. Anything that contains sugars or starches can be turned into ethanol.

Methanol is corrosive & ethanol is not. I would have to assume that they took extra precautions to protect the your vehicle from the methanol, so you would be more than safe running ethanol in it. Ethanol & methanol have almost the same stats when it comes to using it as a fuel.

Great INFO, thanks, hmmmmmm i'm going to give FORD a shout and see what happens!!... thanks again guys!!!

Ry

[AllanD]

Alcohol fuels and Di-ester based synthetic oils do not mix.

Bad shit happens.

As for METHANOL FFV's I was unaware that ford SOLD any, it was
my understanding that they were LEASED and ford took them back.

ETHANOL FFV's are common as dirt and in point of fact in a certain year ranger Ranger and taurus/Sable vehicles with 3.0 engines were ONLY sold as E85 FFV's

METHANOL defeats the purpose of an "alternative fuel vehicle"
because for practical purposes ALL commercially produced methanol is
made from petroleum.

Yes, it may be called "wood alcohol" but none of it is made from wood.

the mileage you get is STRICTLY a matter of how much power you use relative to the energy content of the fuel.

cruising at a specific steady speed requires the same ammount of power regardless if you are burning Gasoline, Alcohol, coal dust or for that matter Bat Guano or Duck farts.

The relative heat content of the fuel determines how much will be needed to do "X" ammount of work.

a car that gets 20mpg on gasoline will get ~65% of the mileage on Ethanol and about 55% of the mileage on methanol and that presumes that the engine is specifically set up for those fuels.
Mileage would of course be slightly less on engines set up
with special management to run the engine on any mix
from 100% gasoline to "X%" substitute.

Power is power
Energy is energy
work is work.

this is why if you switch from gasoline to propane and drive at the same speed you lose 5-7% of your mileage, becasue there is that mucyh less heat energy in a given mass of propane.


Add to this that the commercial product "propane" has various percentages of Butane mixed into it and that percentage is variable regionally (in the south more butane in the north less butane) and butane is less energetic than true
"propane" (The 3-carbon alphitic hydrocarbon)

Can you say "Alphitic hydrocarbon morphistology"?


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[Jason]

Ford own tech website says methanol FFV's were sold. I wish I could post a link, but you need to be an employee of a Ford franchise to see it.

if you happen to be..

www.fmcdealer.com

[AllanD]

Jason,

I believe you, but my being "unaware" is partly because I couldn't care less.

a METHANOL FFV is a real white elephant, if someone GAVE me one
I don't know what I'd do with it, but I'd be unlikely to EVER put any
methanol in it.

Basically it's a gasoline powered car with a USELESS complication.

I've actually SEEN E85 being sold.

Methanol? I'd hate like hell to be forced to open that many bottles
of walmart dry-gas

AD

[tempforce]

the fuel curve can be modified and the timing increased and your e-85 will equall to or get better milleage tha gas, with lots more power.
a inline performance box can do the trick if you don't know of a shop that can mod your computer.
the addition of a start can ie:dual fuel start on gas run on brew. you can then run on 175-200 proof fuel.
adding a inline ethanol fuel heater can result in better fuel mileage. (between the fuel pump and injectors).
caution the computer must be changed back to factory. for low Alcohol fuel.

[BLACK_RANGER_4X4]

my 97 ranger is flex fuel. is not desinged for e85, only e10. i stay as far away from ethanol fuel period. i do not get any mgp on the crap

[Wicked_Sludge]

the fuel curve can be modified and the timing increased and your e-85 will equall to or get better milleage tha gas, with lots more power.


simply not true. see allans previous post. ethanol fuels contain less BTU's per gallon than pure gasoline, thus more ethanol is needed to accomplish the same amount of work as a a gallon of gas.

pretty much any vehicle will run on E10 with no modifications. i picked up some E10 in eastern WA one time in my '89 escort and the decrease in mileage for that tank was minimal.

[fastpakr]

my 97 ranger is flex fuel. is not desinged for e85, only e10. i stay as far away from ethanol fuel period. i do not get any mgp on the crap

The Flex Fuel indicator implies that it IS designed for E85 (not that it makes sense to run it).

[tempforce]

the flex fuel vehicles can and will get more power and mileage if optimized for it.
consider a vehicle set up for 87 octane and one set up for 98 octane. they are basically the same engine but they are set up different.
with e-85 vs e-5 the engine needs to be set up for the type of fuel.
with the stock setup, you can us both fuels. but as in the above example the flex fuel and the vehicle designed for 87 octane Will use the other fuel. but not perform as well as if they were set up for that fuel. so with your flex fuel vehicle you can make mods to give it more power and mileage. but you would have to return to the factory settings to use low % of alcohol.
the major changes made to the vehicle is a broad span o2 sensor, advancing the timing. and if rebuilding the engine. raising the compresion to 12-13:1.

[Wicked_Sludge]

a broadband O2 isnt going to do anything to help power. its a tool used to tune an engine and is completely useless to the factory computer. the computer also actively monitors the fuel and advances the timing when elthanol is run in order to get the most out of it. raising the compression would help get a little more out of the higher octane fuel, but no amount of tuning will make a vehicle running on e85 get the same mileage as a vehicle running straight gasoline. e85 has a lower BTU content per unit than gasoline. less heat means less energy can be transformed from chemical to mechanical to move the vehicle.

[oldmantruck]

so was the original question will a car built to run on methanol run on ethanol. Methanal is H3COH Ethanol is H3CCH2OH, basically the carbon to oxigen ratio is better. That being said ethanol is closer to gasoline, (A mix of eight or so carbon chains and equivalent rings) so if a car is set up to run on anymix of up to M85 it should run no problem on e85, if it is set up for only straight methanol or switched to gasoline it could cause a problem. Each fuel has its own perfect stoichometric mixture(airfuel mix). gas is 14.2 to one. it gets lower with ethanol sinces ethanol is more oxigenated methanol is even more oxigenated. any mix inbetween has its own specific proper air fuel mix. the car must be equiped to deturmine the fuel , or actually the oxigenation level of the fuel in use to provide this mix.

I said a lot there, but to sum up. If it is a Flex fuel as in any mix in one tank, it will work(probably),
if it is an either or, as in pure gas or pure methanol, it won't
as already mentioned Methyl is more corosive, so if it can handle methyl it can handle ethyl .
remember milage on e85 will be about 15% less, so if the price is more than 15% less it is worth it if not then just run gas

hope this helps