HHO gas conversion

[riot]

has anyone done one yet? what kind of results did you get?

[krugford]

Not again... there have been a few threads on this. It's a scam. You can't come out ahead on the energy balance unless you are carrying compressed hydrogen and oxygen around with you that were filled from an energy source outside of your vehicle.

[AllanD]

Hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

It is a means of energy STORAGE.

Seperating hydrogen from Oxygen in water takes a great deal of energy.
More than you'll get out of it when you re-burn the hydrogen.

That energy MUST come from somewhere.

TANSTAAFL!
(There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

ALL of the alternative fuel schemes are Scams because they ignore the trade off that must be made to accomodate the alternative. AND they usually ignore the conversion cost.

The term of art I like to use is "False economy"

It's like trading in your 25mpg Taurus (that's already paid for)
to finance a $35000 Prius to save $2000 worth of gasoline a year.

And that is only the tip of the iceberg, what about the energy that went
into making the Prius? what about the heavy metals contamination generated by simply Mining the nickel that was required to make the batteries (leave alone the discussion about the pollution from REFINING the nickel)

And only NOW is Honda FINALLY making a prius that you can plug into your house

DUH!!!

The only way out of the energy bottleneck we are in is Nuclear energy
yet the Greenies and the NIMBY's (Not In My Back Yard) won't let us
take that route.

The liberals keep saying Drilling ANWR and Outer continental shelf oil
won't reduce the price of fuel at the pump.
I say NOT drilling will allow the prices to continue to increase.

Greater US crude production won't solve anything without building
new refineries because our exsisting refineries are running near
capacity and a great percentage of our energy is imported already
refined.

And Ethanol is an even bigger scam.

because you are paying for it even if you don't use it
(Between subsidies and higher food prices) and if you do use
it you are paying even more... and that ignores the long term
effects of soil depletion from growing corn.

AD

[BDAB]

yeah, what he said........

[BrianS]

I'm very skeptical as well and I'm not pushing everyone to try it. I'm putting a kit together myself and I will post results. I'm not one of those people that posts a video of it "working" and then wants to sell someone a kit or instructions. I am doing this detailed as well....to settle this for once. From what I understand you produce HHO gas (Brown's gas) and inject/pump it into the vehicle's intake tract and then in combination you lean out/ or lower the amount of fuel and the HHO will take up the slack. Mythbusters said you couldn't do it from a kit...but they actually did the experiment wrong...but they did prove a car would run from tanked hydrogen, and run well it did. There are a few dangers of this, one of which is in the Mythbusters video (backfire) so they do recommend a system like a bubbler to arrest any flame/spark from going back into the generator. And again like I said to everyone on this forum, I don't know if this works or if it does not, I'm just here to learn and I'm very skeptical about this and I really don't expect it to work. The reasons I'm even trying this is because of a youtube.com video where a man runs a 92 5.0l f-150 from nothing but a HHO generator....or so he says and fro the video it looks like it is. Just no flames, hope I get some support.


Thanks
Brian

[BrianS]

http://hopecell.com/concept.html


This site is basically (from what I gather) pushing a HHO generator and explains how it works. After reading it, they say breaking H2O into the HHO gas is a cold fusion reaction...so now I'm doubting it even more. Just read for yourself.

[AllanD]

There is ALWAYS energy input to split water into it's components.

EITHER the Electrical input of straight electrolysis
OR energy input into mining and highly refining a comsumable catalyst
(that must be periodically replaced)

the trivial ammount of hydrogen that can be produced by a system
of either type that would fit in a small container is a waste of effort.

IF the production cell were the size of a 275gallon oil tank
(that incidentially fills a 6' ranger bed) MIGHT produce enough
hydrogen to do something useful... but let me point out you'd
also be lugging around 2200lbs of WATER, which would probably
have an adverse effect on your mileage.

frankly I think a small carefully shielded isotope reactor
used to boil water could power a triple expansion steam
power plant and power your truck down the road.

but most people would object to the lead underwear that drivers
and passengers would be required to wear to avoid having FLK's

AD

[BrianS]

Have you actually tried this? I mean I haven't tried it so I'm not going to say it works or doesn't, I'm just wondering where your pony came into this race?

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in any isolated system remains constant but cannot be recreated, although it may change forms, e.g. friction turns kinetic energy into thermal energy. In thermodynamics, the first law of thermodynamics is a statement of the conservation of energy for thermodynamic systems, and is the more encompassing version of the conservation of energy. In short, the law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.
We are really just trying to make that energy in the water available for use.
So how is this any different from the way our fuel called gasoline works? I'm sure our vehicles wouldn't run off of straight petroleum just like they won't run off straight water.

[atlranger]

There is a guy on Explorer forum who gets 30+MPG with an 4.0SOHC trying to test it right now:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217491

[Jason]

Well that's impossible!!!! LMAO

[AllanD]

Have you actually tried this? I mean I haven't tried it so I'm not going to say it works or doesn't, I'm just wondering where your pony came into this race?

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in any isolated system remains constant but cannot be recreated, although it may change forms, e.g. friction turns kinetic energy into thermal energy. In thermodynamics, the first law of thermodynamics is a statement of the conservation of energy for thermodynamic systems, and is the more encompassing version of the conservation of energy. In short, the law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.
We are really just trying to make that energy in the water available for use.
So how is this any different from the way our fuel called gasoline works? I'm sure our vehicles wouldn't run off of straight petroleum just like they won't run off straight water.

Yeah, it's called Conservation of energy... Blaa, Blaa, Blaa

Yes Conservation of energy applies, HOWEVER this does not mean, Imply or even "suggest" that the energy input to the system goes WHERE you want it to....

REALITY is that the only "closed" system is the entire universe.
Most of the energy is lost as heat at various points in the system.

This is the difference between "theoritical concept" and "Realistic outcome"

There is a guy on Explorer forum who gets 30+MPG with an 4.0SOHC trying to test it right now:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217491

Then there's a guy on the explorer forum that is so full of shit that we should harness him for the methane, that's solve the energy crisis!

Theory is the girl you meet in a bar that really seems to like you and takes you to bed.
Reality is finding out she was a pro that a friend paid for as a birthday present.

And in the end all you got was fukt.

Yes you can get a kit and install it on your truck and "Test it",
but reality is that your time could be more productively spent
giving your cat a bath to find out if there is some method you
can use to avoid having your face ripped off

you don't need to test one of those hydrogen generators
to KNOW they don't work, "proving" it is a waste of time except for being able to shut up all the dilusional dreamers.

If you need to test it then you shouldn't be suggesting that I have a lack of objectivity as demonstrated by my negative comments, rather that you are going into the experiment with excessive optimism and that you are HOPING that it'll work.

If you hire a religeous fanatic to "prove" god exsists you are wasting your time.
Ditto if you hire an atheist to prove god doesen't exsist.

But if you hire both of them AND an agnostic and theym all reach the same conclusion you might have something... What I have no idea, but I'd be testing the water they were drinking for lithium compounds.... :)

Are you one of those people that has to test to see if having
a pineapple shoved up your ass hurts before you recommend
against others trying it?
If you are I'll be scientifically minded and volunteer to supply the pineapple.... :)

AD

[BrianS]

Just another complete moron that thinks they know it all.


Here is the thing, if it doesn't work in the least bit and the person that installs this thing gets better mileage simply because after it's put on they change their driving habits, i.e. the placebo effect.....the outcome is the same. Better mileage is all we are after and I'm sure we could all tell theories to each other all day long about why you have homosexual fantasies about pineapples but we simply don't give a rip. Yeah yeah we know you think this is total garbage, as much as I'd like this to work, I really don't think it does and if by some chance is does if by only 1 or 2mpg that probably means that subconsciously I changed my driving habits. I understand all this. If you don't believe in this I don't care, because I'm in the same boat with you, but we don't want to hear it anymore. We get the point and if you don't like it stop reading this post. You don't see turbo people in the forums hounding the hell out of the supercharger people just because one picked another method of doing the same thing. :hottubfun: So take the energy required to read this and repost about how stupid we are and use it on your girl so she maybe won't think you like men and pineapples like everyone else thats read your post is thinking right now.:bye:

[BrianS]

Ok now back to the subject of this post. I've actually started building two of these generators. Found out that when electrolysis takes place in the generator, the anode (+) is where the Oxygen comes from and the cathode (-) is where the Hydrogen comes from. The reason I'm making two is because I wanted a smaller one to go into my Bmw 325i. The bigger one is actually huge by most HHO standards. I used 3"od sch 40 pvc with 2' length. The original parts that I bought at lowes that were supposed to be stainless steel in fact rusted after just 3 hours of testing. So I'm having to rebuild the smaller one, I'm also using an old transmission cooler and pump to keep the fluid cool.

[BrianS]

Ok.....seems like we have a strike against hydrogen. The non-magnetic stainless steel parts I just bought are starting to rust after only 30 minutes to an hour of the actual generator running. Has anyone ever tried building one from aluminum? So here is an explanation of what happened

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=104

Even though the stainless parts I bought did not react to a strong magnet they still did contain steel or iron or whatever that is causing this problem. I'm either going to redo the whole thing with aluminum or start looking for high-grade stainless. A caution for people who use salt to do this......salt in these generators WILL cause chlorine gas to be formed, I work with chlorine almost ever day and chlorine is VERY corrosive to almost anything. I can't imagine this stuff rusting more than it already has. So I'm starting to think this can't be done without a very expensive metal or maybe if this could beto took out of the equation altogether. Any ideas besides telling me to stop?

[AllanD]

Just another complete moron that thinks they know it all.


Here is the thing, if it doesn't work in the least bit and the person that installs this thing gets better mileage simply because after it's put on they change their driving habits, i.e. the placebo effect.....the outcome is the same. Better mileage is all we are after and I'm sure we could all tell theories to each other all day long about why you have homosexual fantasies about pineapples but we simply don't give a rip. Yeah yeah we know you think this is total garbage, as much as I'd like this to work, I really don't think it does and if by some chance is does if by only 1 or 2mpg that probably means that subconsciously I changed my driving habits. I understand all this. If you don't believe in this I don't care, because I'm in the same boat with you, but we don't want to hear it anymore. We get the point and if you don't like it stop reading this post. You don't see turbo people in the forums hounding the hell out of the supercharger people just because one picked another method of doing the same thing. :hottubfun: So take the energy required to read this and repost about how stupid we are and use it on your girl so she maybe won't think you like men and pineapples like everyone else thats read your post is thinking right now.:bye:

Homoerotic? No Scatalogical Certainly.

I don't "need" to have some placebo device to make me change my driving habits for Economy, if you do mabey someone should drop a cylinder head on your right foot so you simply press less hard on the skinny pedal.

Though in my personal case when I'm trying to get mileage my right thumb is more important... Cruise control!

Bye? Oh I should lay awake at night dreaming that you and the other
"True believers" would just GO AWAY... I don't care where either.
Infact I don't care if you go away mad, provided you do actually go
I doubt anyone else will care either.

As for the pineapple... Never seen "Little Nicky" have you?

AD

[BrianS]

Well as soon as I clicked to submit that last post I realized something.........If this is corroding stainless steel this fast.....what is it doing to the engines that people are using this stuff in? My honest opinion is that until this huge "problem" is addressed, people should take these things off of their vehicles or turn them off and wait for a solution to the corrosion. They may work for 5k or 10k or even all the way 100k miles, we don't know, but we do know that is causes so much corrosion that in a few hours of operation is turns the fluid orange/red from rusting stainless steel.

[AllanD]

It's called selective etching.

Stainless steel is "stainless" because it contains chromium and the oxide layer of the chromium protects the metal.

That all goes out the window when an electric current is applies and the steel (still 80% of the material) starts to oxidize.

what makes it worse is that Nickel is usually added to the alloy to reduce brittleness than that is very easily etched out.

would you happen to know what specific grade of stainless you have?
(I may think your test is doomed to failure but I don't want you to
blame the failure on a materials issue)

this is why in many specialized chemical processes "higher" grades
of non-magnetic stainless steel are used.
your container is most likely 304L but might be 316L

In corrosive containment 321 or 343

In specialized applications stainless materials are used, but they aren't steel...

Something called Hastelloy is used, Basically Hastelloy is stainless steel
but Cobalt has been substituted for the iron... (It's more complicated
than that in detail, but...)

AD

[BrianS]

Well the testing that I did really just proved how corrosive hydrogen is and I don't think anyone would want to put this into their engine if they knew this. I "could" use better materials to keep it from rusting...but, I'd also have to make the entire intake and exhaust system from it as well....and that just not cost effective and the manufacture of these exotic metals would more than likely effect the environment. It's just not a way to save gas in my honest opinion. Oh and I'm not sure which type of stainless I used but it was not magnetic, I knew that much about selecting stainless. It would have been nice if it did work....but with the corrosion that I saw....or hey maybe after a few people start having engine trouble we could get some spare parts! I am needing a few things lol.

[BrianS]

http://www.bitdig.com/torrent/other/download-1164422/Underhood-Alternator-Electrolysis-MYTH-avi.html

Watch and be amazed

[philzilla]

Hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

And Ethanol is an even bigger scam.

because you are paying for it even if you don't use it
(Between subsidies and higher food prices) and if you do use
it you are paying even more... and that ignores the long term
effects of soil depletion from growing corn.

AD

oh and i little fun fact !: ) To develop the land to grow crops that produce Ethanol, will produce more emissions than just leaving the land alone letting people produce emissions from burning gas instead of ethanol . soooo ethanol ultimately pollutes more, :dntknw:

[reno]

Well the testing that I did really just proved how corrosive hydrogen is and I don't think anyone would want to put this into their engine if they knew this. I "could" use better materials to keep it from rusting...but, I'd also have to make the entire intake and exhaust system from it as well....and that just not cost effective and the manufacture of these exotic metals would more than likely effect the environment. It's just not a way to save gas in my honest opinion. Oh and I'm not sure which type of stainless I used but it was not magnetic, I knew that much about selecting stainless. It would have been nice if it did work....but with the corrosion that I saw....or hey maybe after a few people start having engine trouble we could get some spare parts! I am needing a few things lol.

Thank you, these are the types of reports I have been waiting for. Whether it be pro or con. I would imagine that the corrosion would do something internally to the engine, then again, is the corrosion only happening in the generator tank? Remember you are after the gasses. Would corrosion actually break down and become a destuctive gas? If so how?

[MAKG]

Well the testing that I did really just proved how corrosive hydrogen is and I don't think anyone would want to put this into their engine if they knew this. I "could" use better materials to keep it from rusting...but, I'd also have to make the entire intake and exhaust system from it as well....and that just not cost effective and the manufacture of these exotic metals would more than likely effect the environment. It's just not a way to save gas in my honest opinion. Oh and I'm not sure which type of stainless I used but it was not magnetic, I knew that much about selecting stainless. It would have been nice if it did work....but with the corrosion that I saw....or hey maybe after a few people start having engine trouble we could get some spare parts! I am needing a few things lol.

It's not the hydrogen that's corrosive. It's the oxygen, especially with the electric current.

[Yooper]

Well as soon as I clicked to submit that last post I realized something.........If this is corroding stainless steel this fast.....what is it doing to the engines that people are using this stuff in? My honest opinion is that until this huge "problem" is addressed, people should take these things off of their vehicles or turn them off and wait for a solution to the corrosion. They may work for 5k or 10k or even all the way 100k miles, we don't know, but we do know that is causes so much corrosion that in a few hours of operation is turns the fluid orange/red from rusting stainless steel.

What kind of salt are you using? The guy at the link below says you have to use either sodium hydroxide (NaOH) or potassium hydroxide (KOH), and definitely NOT sodium chloride (NaCl) or baking soda to specifically avoid the corrosion problem. He is also running distilled water.

Also, I saw this guy's videos on youtube where he took apart one of his generators after running it for a couple thousand miles and his plates were just about perfect. He was using stainless steel electrical box covers which I can't imagine are a real high grade of stainless.

I am kind of looking into playing around with this and am interested in any and all results you come up with.

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/


Yooper

[MAKG]

The corrosion problem is a bit like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Sure, it's a problem, but it's very minor compared to the problem that you can't possibly make more energy than you use with an output that is the same as the input (except it's hotter, so you must have used up energy to make it that way).

[BrianS]

Do you realize that it takes 10 gallons of hydrogen to make enough btu's thats in one gallon of gas?! So lets see here.......1 gallon will get my 20 miles.....so one gallon of hydrogen will get me 2 miles (rounded off). So at 60mph I'm using three gallons of gas an hour.....so that means 30 gallons of hydrogen an hour!!!! Ok....now check out what these people are saying....."huge hydrogen generator thats makes 1-2lph" Litter per hour.....Thats not even putting a dent in the fuel consumption.... just do a google search for "Alternator Electrolysis" that video should explain in great detail why this is a HUGE HOAX! You can run your car on hydrogen if you ude a large enough tank and it's a great idea......but it takes so much hydrogen to make this work even in the smallest way....btw if you want a way around the corrosion.....use graphite rods! Waste your money like I did, I didn't expect this to work and it didn't, it's snake oil people just like the guy above said.:bsflag:

[James Denton]

I have got 3 units built and have 2 set up and running in shop still trying to get the amperes where I want them been running the 2 unit now for 2 hours amperes is at 17-------Going to turn it off -start it back up in the morning and check and see how hot it gets-1-hour and so on.:icon_bounceblue:

[James Denton]

I have been running one off-and on 30 hours in the shop water is clear-
NO RUST PLATES--- LOOK NEW--------so can't figure out what you running in yours.

[James Denton]

4 more miles to the gallon that's what my unit is doing-------I think that great for something that people said would not work.I said I had to build it to see for myself -----I DID----IT WORKS ----SO -that's all I wanted to let everyone know------

[krugford]

4 more miles to the gallon that's what my unit is doing-------I think that great for something that people said would not work.I said I had to build it to see for myself -----I DID----IT WORKS ----SO -that's all I wanted to let everyone know------



Let everyone know what? That you got 4 more miles to the gallon on something? What's the vehicle? Original mileage? Other work done along with this kit? Tune up? Carb rebuilt? Recent maintenance?

[thoughtcriminal]

i wish people would try a forum search, or a google search, or even apply basic knowledge of natural laws before just pushing the new thread button and asking the same bleeding question again

[James Denton]

Let everyone know what? That you got 4 more miles to the gallon on something? What's the vehicle? Original mileage? Other work done along with this kit? Tune up? Carb rebuilt? Recent maintenance?

It's runinng on a 81 Ford Van 300 6cly------150,000 miles on it NO-Other -WORK has been done----Built the unit hook it up and took off.This unit has been shop test for over 30 hours before it was installed.

[superdave1984]

The corrosion is because you didn't use sodium carbonate (not bi-carbonate) in the water. When the current is applied it actually will remove rust.

[1983dieselranger]

I have a 1994 Ford Ranger 4.0 5 speed Ext. Cab 4x4 and i am getting 25mpg with a k&n and HHO. Who in here gets that out of a truck like that? My Truck has 172,000 miles on it. I am also running 31 10.50's So i am sure i am getting better than 25mpg. I drove 75 miles and it took 3 gallon to fill it back up. I had to calculate twice even as simple as it is cause i couldn't believe it.

[turbo cat]

built a small one for a 82 f250 460ci to test it out. we havent road tested it yet as were going to build a larger generator first and then road test teh truck

[hiwy101]

Hello All,

I own a ford ranger and mercury mountianeer v8. It is possible to get 25 MPG without HHO. I was able to get my v8 302 to do 25mpg(it has an onboard stock MPG thing built into it) so i am ceritan of the milage. However, i didnt get it going 75MPH and gunning the engine all the time. I got it by using cruise control and going 50-55 MPH on the freeway and coasting down hills in neutral. I also have 3.73 gears and an automatic. So im not sure that 25 MPG is impossible.

You have to keep im mind that trucks and SUVs are big bricks that you are pushing through the air. getting one to get great effieiceny in a time when china has surpassed us and everything in the USA is now imported isnt going to happen. I wish people would realize that trucks and SUVS are now for the rich. I love my SUV and truck as much as you guys do. But the reality is that its very expensive. I have to sell mine under bluebook. That is sad but it is the way it is.

HHO isnt going to work in the way people have hoped. It would be nice if it did. but it doesn't. Its time to drive vehicles that ARE efficient. This is the only way to help. By efficient i do not mean a prius or conversions. I've seen many old datsuns and toyotas lately that i havent seen in a long time. Buy a $1000 car and fix it and drive it. make sure it will get 30 MPG. that is the only way to save $$$. Otherwise your just wasting more money.